Do you like the use of squads locally?

[Jeeper]

One thing I noticed (and didnt like) when I moved to texas was the use of squads in local matches. Where I lived previously we didnt really use them a lot. My biggest pet peeve is that most times there are 3 squads in a match that has 5 stages and 5 seperate bays. This means that 2 bays are not being used at any one time. It seems like a waste to me. I always preferred the way that "tuesday steel" is run where it is a free for all. THe concept is simple. You go wherever you want. When you get there your scoresheet goes on the bottom. The RO reads off...shooter...on deck..in the hole...x is on tape....y is on tape....z in on steel. This way everyone works. WHen the RO or Score keeper is in the hole they grab whoever is on the bottom of the pile to replace them. Using squads just really seems to draw out the time of matches since there are bays that are unused. The problem I seee is tearing stuff down when it is over that no one will stay around. The other problem is that when there are only a few people left everyone would have to work more. At tuesday steel it seems like if there are only 4 or 5 people left then they all stay around until everyone is done. Kind of a common curtosy thing.

Your opinions???

[Dead Buff]

I like squads because:

- they save time. If there are no squads the match takes longer

- they can expose new guys to different "old" guys for more experiance including the "personal" contact.

- nr of squads = nr of stages OR nr of RO's...which ever is the least. We have the RO('s) stick to a squad if they also compete in the same little local match. If the match is bigger and enough RO's are available to stick to ranges the problem of "swamping" stages with competitors can happen with no squads.

We try to keep squad sizes to between 5 and 12 or 15MAX!!!! If some bays are not used...so what. They will get used...or make more squads with less shooters. The best balance seems to be 1 more squad than stages for big matches (for a break) and equal nr of squads and stages for small fast matches.

Just check that all the speed shoots are not grouped (same with field courses etc). This results in delays and "traffic jams".

[TriggerT]

Squads provide one of the things I like most about the shooting sports, and that is the chance to hang out with people who like to shoot as I do.

[kimel]

One of our local matches is usually 4 stages and we run 15 - 20 shooters. We squad once in awhile but most of the time we don't. So, like last week, I shot first on the first stage and last on the second stage. I went over 3 hours between my time to shoot (we shot Reload Standards as our first stage...4 strings of fire). I was RO'ing and taping that whole time so by the time it came to shoot again I was pretty much ice cold and shot like it.

So a 4 stage match took almost 5 hours to run through not counting tear down time.

Had we squadded in even two squads we could have knocked at least an hour off of that.

At the other local match we run 6 stages and 20 - 25 shooters and we squad every time. Last match took us 3.5 hours to get through including tear down.

Can you guess how I voted?

[Jim Norman]

Ok, Match Managgement 101

Figure how long it will take to clear the longest stage, from Shooter in the box, to shooter in the box. Multiply that by the number of shooters in your largest squad. Multiply that by the number of stages and that is the time thematch will take to run.

10 shooters in the big squad, 3 minutes clear, 30 minutes, add 10 minutes for travel between stages and the walk through, multiply by the number of stages (7 at our monthly match) and you have a match that runs 4h 6m. Depending upon stage size and distance between them YMMV.

We don't have dedicated RO staff at a local match, the ROs travel with and rotate through the squad same as any other shooter.

Even if we had dedicated RO staff, I would opt for squads. Otherwise I will have no idea when I will be shooting on a given stage. I could go to all the stages and turn in my sheet and hopefully be there when my name is called I suppose, but then I may wait for 30 shooters names on the next stage, but only 2 on the stage following. That is no way to run a match.

At GSSF they do it, but the stages are short, the srtaff is stationary and the pile just gets mixed till the people that are there on the stage get their name called, but when they are done they leave.

With squadding, everyone is done at about the same time, so we have plenty of people to help tear down. Fewer stay the extra to put away, but at least most everyone is there to pile the props for pick-up. Especially since we make it a point of asking at the shooters meeting that this be done. Every time.

Jim

[uscbigdawg]

I don't like squads in general. I think they are slower than open squadding (shooting Tues. night steel taught me that). However, with folks around here, if it wasn't for squads, there'd never be any work getting done and thus a necessary evil.

Open squadding, again around here, seems to so far only work at Oakdale as folks are there to 'have fun' but at the same time shoot and so they are all about taping and resetting the stages. 4 Stages, 120+ rounds and you're done in an hour. Gotta love it.

Rich

[Jim Norman]

How many people shoot this 4 stage match?

How many show up to set up?

How many stay to tear down?

What if all of you need to shoot only the last stage?

Squads are the only way to manage a large turnout. You know where on the range you need to be and at what time you need to be there. Lets see, there are 30 score sheets in this here stack, I'll just call names till I get to whoever is actually here. Oh, wait, I'm the only one here, now who is gonna run me? Where is everyone else? 4 bays down waiting for their name to be called. Why don't they come over here? Because they dopn't want to miss their name being called where they are. So here I sit with 15 people on the other 3 stages and no one here. 11 or so on a squad and we'd all be shooting and we'd all finish at the same time.

Jim

[tewlman]

we used to not shoot in squads, but the Ro's always took a reaming because they would work a stage all day while the non-workers shot and went home. now the squad self ro's and we get done much faster and everyone works. much, much better.

[uscbigdawg]

Jim,

Typically anywhere from 20-30 competitors, shooting on average two guns, with many shooting three. (So the total number of scores is around 50-70).

The setup crew is on rotation and is comprised of a minimum of 4 with the usual being somewhere around 8-10.

As for the 'efficiency' of open squadding. Watching Rio Solado put on Tuesday night steel with around 100 shooters and you're done in an hour is impressive. Granted 90% of the stages are ring steel only, it's still oober efficient (and yet still social).

It can work. It takes good volunteers to setup AND tear down as well as dedicated stage RO's for the early AM and late AM (11am) shifts.

We generally roll in around 10:30/11:00am after a nice relaxing breakfast. Take about 20-30 minutes to get gear on, register and BS. Shoot four stages in less than an hour. Hang out, change guns if necessary. Shoot another set of stages or the classifier with multiple guns and then head out by 1pm. Pretty sweet.

If you want to get done earlier, you show up earlier. If time isn't an issue, you show up later. Pretty simple.

Again. This is not at every club around here. We've got I think 5 clubs within an hours drive of my house (kind of central to all of them) and are blessed with 7-8 matches per month. This is the only club that this works at.

Rich

Rich

[George]

We used to use “Festival” style shooting at our local club back when I started (88-89). We had large crowds back then, typically 60+, sometimes near 100. The shooting would start at 9:30-10am and would go on till after 3pm, sometimes 4 if the crowd was really large. We had a vendor providing burgers and dogs and it was a very social day even if it took forever.

When the competitor load was 40, or less we would be done a lot earlier. There was always a rifle, or shotgun side match after the pistol shooting was done and the results would be announced and plaques handed out right after the side match was done. There would be a good size crowd at the end and very few did the shoot-n-scoot move that seems to be the rage nowadays.

I took a break from shooting in early 92 and during my absence the club went to squadding universally. It is definitely more efficient and it does get done a little bit faster, but I also notice that the turnouts are lower on average nowadays (30-40). The sidematches are gone and there is no food vendor anymore. All in all, the social aspect is what seems to have disappeared along with the change to squadding. The matches are more focused on just plain shooting now and after a squad is done almost no one sticks around for results and sidematches don’t happen.

I miss the long gun sidematches. I miss getting to interact with everyone that comes to a match, not just the squad I am on. I miss the results getting announced to a large crowd that stayed to the end because they were having a good time. Basically it feels like a much smaller shindig nowadays and the turnouts show it.

I do miss “Festival” shooting. I am not soft selling the amount of work it took to wrangle the RO crews that stayed with each stage and the extra time a match can take, but for many other reasons I really do miss “Festival” shooting.

--

Regards,

[Jim Norman]

Well, we don't have food, but we run 40-60+ shooters, we run 7 pits and 8 stages as well as a rifle or shotgun side match. THere is a lot of socializatoin since our pits are close together, ususally three squads are inthe same general area.

If I went to a steel match where I could just show, shoot and scoot, I suppose that the open method would be fine, but since we have to build and terar down on the same day it is nice to have everyoe finish about equal.

Jim

[George]

I also forgot to mention that stages have never been taken down at our club. After usable paper targets are stripped, the props and steel just get left for practice shooters and the following weekends Saturday RO crew, or match setup crew to deal with. This is not a big issue because we have a dedicated IPSC facility.

Whenever I set up stages half the work is in clearing the rubble from the previous match. There have been some setups that lasted long enough to get referred to as “this years stage”.

--

Regards,

[Nik Habicht]

Squadding. We use the multi-use pits at our club which need to be completely cleared for member use after the match. Our four big stages each have a dedicated two story trailer --- props go on the bottom and wall sections and braces go on the top deck. While setting up four stages and a classifier takes a couple of hours, teardown is accomplished by the squad in less than 15 minutes if we have someone standing by with a screw gun to take the walls apart. We start shooting at ten, and even with 56 shooters running through the match last month, were packed up and off the range before three.

In my experience open squadding serves only the shooter who doesn't want to contribute to the work involved in the match.....

[LPatterson]

I like squads, that way I don't have to RO for 3 hours waiting for a relief RO while half of the shooters have gone home. For some reason a couple of our better shooters have become prima donnas who no longer associate with RO's and lower class shooters.

One club I belong to squads and uses squad shooters to RO and they can shoot 5 stages in 3 hours. The other club doesn't squad and a 5 stage match takes 6 hours and replacement RO's have to shoot through the people on a stage usually with only a quick walk through as the on deck shooter.

The biggest match in the state is the sectional and it is only 6 stages.

Should be a real challenge next year shooting 12 stages in 1 day.

[COF]

We've been shooting a four stage match since 98 and up until last year we always divided the shooters into squads. The problem was that not every showed up at the same time. So after the primary group was divided equally and sent out to stages, you'd have more shooters show up and then you had to play personnel manager sending the right number of folks to each squad to keep them even. Invariably there was always one squad that was slower than the others and created backup at that stage.

Our attendence jumped about 30% last year and it was taking forever to get folks through so we went to open squadding and eliminated a lot of the issues. The change from squadding to open squadding worked for us but may not for others.

I think for a major match with 10 or more stages you have to squad. Of course, there you have a set group of shooters and start time so the other isssue that I described don't come into play. If you have a set sign up and start time, then squading works better. If you have open sign up, then open squadding works better.

Just my .02

[Sestock]

How many people shoot this 4 stage match?

How many show up to set up?

How many stay to tear down?

What if all of you need to shoot only the last stage?

Squads are the only way to manage a large turnout. You know where on the range you need to be and at what time you need to be there. Lets see, there are 30 score sheets in this here stack, I'll just call names till I get to whoever is actually here. Oh, wait, I'm the only one here, now who is gonna run me? Where is everyone else? 4 bays down waiting for their name to be called. Why don't they come over here? Because they dopn't want to miss their name being called where they are. So here I sit with 15 people on the other 3 stages and no one here. 11 or so on a squad and we'd all be shooting and we'd all finish at the same time.

Jim

Not necessarily true. Locally we run open squading with 80-100+ shooters at a montly match. We have usually 2 RO's per stage (5 stages) with floaters. We tend to have the last shooters through in 5 hours total (9-2pm) we are torn down usually by 4:00. We manage the shooters who show up late or are on a second or third gun. We have them shoot the stages in a particular order. As they finish a stage we start tearing down, usually have 2+ stages torn down an put away before they finish the match.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sestock

[CDRODA396]

I've only been shooting matches since last Oct and all three local matches I shoot run the match the same way. Squads run by an RO theat travels with the squad, at one match the RO's shoot for free. You stay with your squad and when you finish your last stage you tear it down. At one match they hold a raffle AFTER all the stages are tore down and put away to motivate people to stay and help tear down.

I really dont think I'd like the free for all approach, seems like it would make for an awful lot of down time, but not having experienced it I can only guess.

[Mr Glack]

Jim +1 ... Leroy +1

[Jim Norman]

We've been shooting a four stage match since 98 and up until last year we always divided the shooters into squads. The problem was that not every showed up at the same time. So after the primary group was divided equally and sent out to stages, you'd have more shooters show up and then you had to play personnel manager sending the right number of folks to each squad to keep them even. Invariably there was always one squad that was slower than the others and created backup at that stage.

Our attendence jumped about 30% last year and it was taking forever to get folks through so we went to open squadding and eliminated a lot of the issues. The change from squadding to open squadding worked for us but may not for others.

I think for a major match with 10 or more stages you have to squad. Of course, there you have a set group of shooters and start time so the other isssue that I described don't come into play. If you have a set sign up and start time, then squading works better. If you have open sign up, then open squadding works better.

Just my .02

Open sign up? How can that work at all? We have a general call for range help at 8:00 sign up opens about 9:15, we close sign up at about 9:45. Walk-through is about 9:55 and first shot is just after 10:00. We ask everyone to stay and tear their last sage down. Show up late? you get squadded where we can fit you. most people show up on time, why? because they know that is what is expected. Most people stay to help tear down. We run 70+ shooters in 7 squads. Our match is a 7 stage match. We try to balance squad sizes. Yes, occasionally we get the "Slow Squad" We address that in different ways. First, we look at why they were slow. Range failures and reshoots? new shooters? Or just plain ole slow?

Squads are the only way. I can't see ROing all morning and then trying to rush through the match. Sure, I'd like to have dedicated ROs, but at the local level,i just don't see it happening. Remember, it takes the same amount of time for one 7 man squad to shoot the match as it does for 7 squads of 7.

Jim

[AikiDale]

Since this thread started nearly 3 years ago I have attended USPSA, IDPA, GSSF and outlaw matches. I have seen matches with and without squadding, with and without dedicated ROs. Some matches run quickly and smoothly and some do not. I do not believe it has anything to do with squadding. As many comments in this thread indicate, each system works for some and not for others.

If the shooters set steel, paste and generally pitch in matches run smoothly. If the shooters are too busy to be there unless they are actually shooting the course of fire the match takes all day. Unless of course there are multiple people dedicated to pasting and setting who are volunteers or paid staff but I have yet to visit the countries where that happens.

Even if the shooters pitch in a stage can be slowed down by having multiple strings of fire, or, by having many targets at long distances to be scored and pasted or reset.

Just some observations. I'm going back to work now.

[Sestock]

We've been shooting a four stage match since 98 and up until last year we always divided the shooters into squads. The problem was that not every showed up at the same time. So after the primary group was divided equally and sent out to stages, you'd have more shooters show up and then you had to play personnel manager sending the right number of folks to each squad to keep them even. Invariably there was always one squad that was slower than the others and created backup at that stage.

Our attendence jumped about 30% last year and it was taking forever to get folks through so we went to open squadding and eliminated a lot of the issues. The change from squadding to open squadding worked for us but may not for others.

I think for a major match with 10 or more stages you have to squad. Of course, there you have a set group of shooters and start time so the other isssue that I described don't come into play. If you have a set sign up and start time, then squading works better. If you have open sign up, then open squadding works better.

Just my .02

Open sign up? How can that work at all? We have a general call for range help at 8:00 sign up opens about 9:15, we close sign up at about 9:45. Walk-through is about 9:55 and first shot is just after 10:00. We ask everyone to stay and tear their last sage down. Show up late? you get squadded where we can fit you. most people show up on time, why? because they know that is what is expected. Most people stay to help tear down. We run 70+ shooters in 7 squads. Our match is a 7 stage match. We try to balance squad sizes. Yes, occasionally we get the "Slow Squad" We address that in different ways. First, we look at why they were slow. Range failures and reshoots? new shooters? Or just plain ole slow?

Squads are the only way. I can't see ROing all morning and then trying to rush through the match. Sure, I'd like to have dedicated ROs, but at the local level,i just don't see it happening. Remember, it takes the same amount of time for one 7 man squad to shoot the match as it does for 7 squads of 7.

Jim

Typical Local Match (80-110+ Shooters)

Friday - After work stage the props and targets on stages, maybe set up a stage or two (2-4 people)

Saturday - Get together at 8:00 and set up the match, eat lunch, staff shoots the match (7-12 people)

Sunday - Get to the range at 8:00, staff assignments, shooting starts at 9:00. Some staff who weren't there on Saturday shoot through. Staff rotates off stages to eat lunch or to shoot a second gun. Last sign-up for shooter is at 1:00. Around 2:00 we usually can start tearing down the stages, following shooters as they finish. Teardown usuallly completed by 3:30-4:00. We usually have a staff of 12-15 on Sunday.

Around here(Pittsburgh) all the clubs do an open format and there is usually not a big backup on stages. If you hit a bckup, you just go to another stage.

The local matchs I have been to over the last 8 years tht squad tend to back up and there is a lot of down time.

So, Jim there is always another way to do things. And for this thread squads may or may not be the answer for a club.

Maybe the open format on sign up and squading is a plus for putting on a shooter friendly match.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sestock

[LPatterson]

Not necessarily true. Locally we run open squading with 80-100+ shooters at a montly match. We have usually 2 RO's per stage (5 stages) with floaters. We tend to have the last shooters through in 5 hours total (9-2pm) we are torn down usually by 4:00. We manage the shooters who show up late or are on a second or third gun. We have them shoot the stages in a particular order. As they finish a stage we start tearing down, usually have 2+ stages torn down an put away before they finish the match.

Must be rough having some many people show up for a match, our sectional match is limited to 75 shooters and after 3 months of advertising we have a little over 50 shooters signed up. Normal squad time is figured at a little over 4 minutes per shooter so I don't understand how you are shooting a 100 floating shooters in 5 hours. The Open Nationals time per squad is 45 minutes with an average squad size of 11. If you tear down stages as soon as you are finished on them them you may be prevent shooters the opportunity of a reshoot for an incomplete score sheet. Last match my squad was about 10 minutes later than the rest of the squads and as we waited for word to tear down, I was told I had to go back and reshoot my 2nd stage because no time was entered. If we had started tear down like you do then I would have been screwed.

[Sestock]

Not necessarily true. Locally we run open squading with 80-100+ shooters at a montly match. We have usually 2 RO's per stage (5 stages) with floaters. We tend to have the last shooters through in 5 hours total (9-2pm) we are torn down usually by 4:00. We manage the shooters who show up late or are on a second or third gun. We have them shoot the stages in a particular order. As they finish a stage we start tearing down, usually have 2+ stages torn down an put away before they finish the match.

Must be rough having some many people show up for a match, our sectional match is limited to 75 shooters and after 3 months of advertising we have a little over 50 shooters signed up. Normal squad time is figured at a little over 4 minutes per shooter so I don't understand how you are shooting a 100 floating shooters in 5 hours. The Open Nationals time per squad is 45 minutes with an average squad size of 11. If you tear down stages as soon as you are finished on them them you may be prevent shooters the opportunity of a reshoot for an incomplete score sheet. Last match my squad was about 10 minutes later than the rest of the squads and as we waited for word to tear down, I was told I had to go back and reshoot my 2nd stage because no time was entered. If we had started tear down like you do then I would have been screwed.

Our montly matches are like mini majors. Our largest match last year was 136 shooters. The RO's are very experienced and check the score sheets for time and add up the hits. Most of the staff has been ro'ed or staffed several nationals, area matches, sectionals and other major matches. Scoring is not done that day, results are usually posted by Tuesday.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sestock

[Jim Norman]

Sestock,

It seems that you have a lot more time than we do. Set up on Friday and Saturday, staff shoot on Saturday and then run the match on Sunday? Are you all wealthy or retired? And is your club a dedicated USPSA only range? We have to tear it all down on Sunday and we sure can't tie up the whole place on Saturday, ocasionally we set up one or two stages Saturday afternoon, but rarely.

Also 7 stages with 14 shooters per squad (or just 98 shooters) at 4 minutes average is 392 minutes. If you allow no additional time between stages and no walk-through time, you are still 6-1/2 hours. First shot fired at 9:00 last shot at 3:30? FiSpeaking of a walk-thorough, how do you manage that with shooters walking onto the stage all day long?

Our figuring for a large match is 5 minutes walk-through, 5 minutes between stages and about 4 minutes per shooter. Our experience is that this is near real world when checked against real results. 70 shooters, 7 squads of 10, 40 minutes plus 10 minutes times 7 stages350 minutes or just shy of 6 hours, We fired last shot at just about 4pm after a 10:15 start.

Our experience is that the longest stage in a match is the governing factor. 6- 10 second stages that clear in 2 minutes and one stage that takes the whole 4 minutes and the match takes the time it takes all the squads to cycle through the one long stage.

But, hey, if it works for you guys, fantastic.

Jim

[Sestock]

Not wealthy or retired. We just have a friendly local club that sets aside the weekend for us.