atbarr Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 zhunter, thanks, I was wondering if I had missed the point of the previous 70 pages of the conversation. Beyond that, I think 'Production Optics, is the already, inevitable arrived future that we can still define and shape. I'm not in agreement with limiting the division to slide only optics at all. that's like putting watered-down gas in Porsche! Anyone that thinks this is missing the whole point of adding an optic to a production gun. IF The idea is to add an optic to a production (stock gun (ie leaning towards tactical/carry)), why does it have to ONLY be slide mounted. There are advantages (tactical & competitive) to mounting it to the frame. The slight added weight decreases recoil and improves target trackability, just for starters. Why don't you email your Area Director, and post this on 'Our' Forum, uspsa.org? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Area Director email, good idea. may email them all since the frame mount I'm refering to is in almost every state in the country. And most of them are owned by USPSA members. 'Our' Forum, uspsa.org? Not following you, I'm not aware (or can't see it) of a Forum on the USPSA.org website. Thanks for the thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Allowing frame mounted is an awful idea. That would be a big advantage over the slide mounted guns and would end up being the standard if you wanted to be as competitive as possible. Definitely keep it as is with slide mounted only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Area Director email, good idea. may email them all since the frame mount I'm refering to is in almost every state in the country. And most of them are owned by USPSA members. 'Our' Forum, uspsa.org? Not following you, I'm not aware (or can't see it) of a Forum on the USPSA.org website. Thanks for the thoughts. Sure, go to 'Member Support', then then look at the bottom left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director "We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division. Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting. You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun." I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Thanks atbarr. Just sign on, waiting for return email so I can get in. I will definitely follow up. alma, big advantage, kinda like CZ & TO have gotten in production class, or STI in Open? When a better mousetrap gets the oil... why not use it? There's other advantages to a frame mounted dot too. It can be used on multiple guns for developing accurate loads. (original purpose of the one you see pictured) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Thanks atbarr. Just sign on, waiting for return email so I can get in. I will definitely follow up. alma, big advantage, kinda like CZ & TO have gotten in production class, or STI in Open? When a better mousetrap gets the oil... why not use it? There's other advantages to a frame mounted dot too. It can be used on multiple guns for developing accurate loads. (original purpose of the one you see pictured) Is that going to fit into a legal holster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Thanks atbarr. Just sign on, waiting for return email so I can get in. I will definitely follow up. alma, big advantage, kinda like CZ & TO have gotten in production class, or STI in Open? When a better mousetrap gets the oil... why not use it? There's other advantages to a frame mounted dot too. It can be used on multiple guns for developing accurate loads. (original purpose of the one you see pictured) Great idea. What about allowing barrel porting or a compensator as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 So.... your back to open minor now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Uh, that would be open class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Holsters would have to be made to conform, or slightly modify the rules. The rules would change anyway if you added frame mounted sight mount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Another advantage to a frame mounted sight mount is you don't have modify the only slide you have, and you can still use the same gun in IDPA comp too, just take the mount off and store it in your bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Uh, that would be open classYeah, that's the point. Alma was being sarcastic because your blurring the lines between PO and Open. We are all very aware that frame mounted is preferable to slide mounted optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Holsters would have to be made to conform, or slightly modify the rules. The rules would change anyway if you added frame mounted sight mount Go shoot open and leave CO alone. It's f*#ked up enough as it is, without you finishing the job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director "We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division. Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting. You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun." I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division. Exactly So if your trying to "make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money." Then my issue and point are still very valid. How 'easy' do you want to make it? Cost of; (leaving the sight costs out, as they vary from $200 - $600) Milling the slide ($75-$125), cover plate ($35-$75) ($120-$200) (to return to almost production) and sight. or Springer or similar adapter ($60), sight, gunsmith costs (ouch, unknown) or your time and expertise to switch adapter and re-install rear sight or purchase another slide ($200+ if available) ($250+) (not readily available for all 'production' guns) set up to swap them out, plus fitting. or Frame/rail mount ($75), sight & holster ($65) ($140) Ease of use, Slide on, tighten screws, have fun. Loosen screws, slide off, have fun. Oh ya, install on other gun, have more fun with both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 You really should have been in on this discussion a long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 72 pages and now we're debating allowing frame mounted optics . No, just no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 72 pages and now we're debating allowing frame mounted optics . No, just no No kidding. Before you know it, someone will bring up some crazy minimum trigger weight idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 72 pages and now we're debating allowing frame mounted optics . No, just no No kidding. Before you know it, someone will bring up some crazy minimum trigger weight idea. That sounds like an awesome idea!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Frame mount is not gonna happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director "We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division. Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting. You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun." I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division. Exactly So if your trying to "make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money." Then my issue and point are still very valid. How 'easy' do you want to make it?Cost of; (leaving the sight costs out, as they vary from $200 - $600) Milling the slide ($75-$125), cover plate ($35-$75) ($120-$200) (to return to almost production) and sight. or Springer or similar adapter ($60), sight, gunsmith costs (ouch, unknown) or your time and expertise to switch adapter and re-install rear sight or purchase another slide ($200+ if available) ($250+) (not readily available for all 'production' guns) set up to swap them out, plus fitting. or Frame/rail mount ($75), sight & holster ($65) ($140) Ease of use, Slide on, tighten screws, have fun. Loosen screws, slide off, have fun. Oh ya, install on other gun, have more fun with both. I think "time and expertise" is maybe an overstatement of what it takes to put on a rear dovetail sight mount. If you can change a rear sight (incredibly easy) then you can put on a dot. It isn't hard, and I surely wouldn't pay a gunsmith to do it. And if you did take it to a gunsmith, it would only cost as much as fitting a rear sight, so really that would probably only be like what, 50 bucks at the MOST? Probably less for just a rear? Still the least expensive option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdneuf Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) But not the easiest option. And it would be a pain change out From Rick Steele, Area 5 Director"We talked about this at the Board meeting. We are trying to make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money. If you machine the slide for the dot and then remove the dot, you will need to fill the machined area with a plate of similar material (steel in most cases) to make it look like a production gun. That will probably depend on how deep you machine the slide. Troy McManus will be the deciding factor as we walk through the issues in this new division.Since this is a provisional division the ruling on that may change but that is what the Board talked about at the meeting.You can also use a dovetail mount. It will make the dot a little higher than normal sights but it is very easy to return it to a Production gun." I do kind of have an issue with this statement in that there are many production shooters who have sold off their plastic guns in favor of >35oz steel guns. I think they may be excluding a large number of folks that would be willing to try a dot on a CZ or TF. Even though I started this thread, I don't plan on purchasing another firearm just to shoot a provisional division.ExactlySo if your trying to "make it easy for the shooter to try the Division without putting out a lot of money." Then my issue and point are still very valid. How 'easy' do you want to make it?Cost of; (leaving the sight costs out, as they vary from $200 - $600)Milling the slide ($75-$125), cover plate ($35-$75) ($120-$200) (to return to almost production) and sight. orSpringer or similar adapter ($60), sight, gunsmith costs (ouch, unknown) or your time and expertise to switch adapter and re-install rear sight or purchase another slide ($200+ if available) ($250+) (not readily available for all 'production' guns) set up to swap them out, plus fitting. orFrame/rail mount ($75), sight & holster ($65) ($140) Ease of use, Slide on, tighten screws, have fun. Loosen screws, slide off, have fun. Oh ya, install on other gun, have more fun with both. I think "time and expertise" is maybe an overstatement of what it takes to put on a rear dovetail sight mount. If you can change a rear sight (incredibly easy) then you can put on a dot. It isn't hard, and I surely wouldn't pay a gunsmith to do it.And if you did take it to a gunsmith, it would only cost as much as fitting a rear sight, so really that would probably only be like what, 50 bucks at the MOST? Probably less for just a rear? Still the least expensive option. But a frame mount is still easiest way. Plus dovetail would be a pain changing out at the range, if as a competitor you wanted to shoot both divisions in one day. Edited August 8, 2015 by tdneuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Lots of talk and interest in CO today at our local steel match Saw several CO guns being shot today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 what happened to the scores from today ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 what happened to the scores from today ...? Obviously not posted yet. I'm told they will be later tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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