ctay Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Open and PO are not the same at all. This has been discussed ad nauseam. If you want to argue that PO guns should just shoot open please answer me these questions previously stated: Doesn't open cover every division? Can you make a case why we should have any other division? Wouldn't that exact case then serve to validate the call for Production Optics? Why must we always make a mountain out of a mole hill? Allow it as a provisional division and see what happens. If no one shoots it let it die. If there is participation make it permanent. So easy a caveman can do it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Why must we always make a mountain out of a mole hill? Allow it as a provisional division and see what happens. If no one shoots it let it die. If there is participation make it permanent. So easy a caveman can do it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) . Again, kinda hard to get a guy to come run his carry gun with a slide mounted optic and have him compete against true open guns. He'd be better off in the over all standings using a Limited gun. I don't think the drubbing he'd receive weekend after weekend would be conducive to longevity.. Instead of 30% of the Open winner, the guy will now get 45% of the Production Optics winner. Either way, he's probably going to be one of the last ones in the division and he'll see a winner shooting either a $5k tricked out Open gun or a $3k tricked out Production Optics gun. Sure, he'll do slightly better relatively speaking and the price difference between his and the winner's gun is going to be less, but those seem to be kinda small differences. I seriously doubt that those differences are really going to change what a shooter thinks about USPSA and if he will actually continuing competing. I do see some point and merit with the division as the number of production-style guns with optics is increasing and it might get some decent participation from open and production, but I dont believe for a second that this will add any measurable number of new shooters. Even airsoft or .22 would probably add more USPSA members than this division. We could always try all three, right? We'll keep any that get participation. In the next iteration, we can try Open Minor, Revolver Optics and Limited Optics Edited July 24, 2014 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 For those of you that use Facebook check out the Area 6 page there's a pretty active discussion of Production Optics there. As you would expect the vast majority are against it but at least Jay has opened up the topic for discussion there so maybe there's some hope. I have to admit the idea of filling magazines to factory capacity is one I do like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 As you would expect the vast majority are against it Seem like a good reason to go with it to me. It seems like most people here are aginst it too, only a handful really seem to be talking about how to make it work. 8-shot minor went so smooth for revo and that was just a change with in a division. (and it's still screwed up, as I've seen C class shooters are get over 100% on some classifiers.) If this does happen, I hope the BOD at least takes there time and does it right. Make sure all the angles are covered before implimenting anything like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Ok, since this thread is now sitting at 21 pages I thought it might be time to move it in a more 'actionable" direction ... seems to me that if we want this idea to go anywhere we'd need to show the BoD there is enough interest across the country to merit a provisional division. So here's my suggestion after thinking about a way to do this for about 5 seconds ... Someone from each of the 8 Areas volunteer to contact their AD and request the e-mail addresses for all MDs in their Area. If the AD wanted to take on the task themselves so much the better ... A small group of interested people (3-5) develop a one paragraph Production Optics description that the MD could read at the beginning of their matches which would provide a quick 'big picture' overview of this new division along with a petition sign up sheet. the petition would be for USPSA members to give their name, USPSA # & signature & by signing indicate to the BoD that they would like to see a provisional PO division established. We then ask the MDs to read this at the beginning of their matches. You let this petition drive run for a few months, collect all the signatures and then present to the BoD for consideration ... So, anyone want to get more involved then just endlessly debating this on Al Gore's Internet and waiting for someone else to do something? Any "men of action" out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Or put out a news item on USPSA website that directs people to the USPSA Forum where we could put the proposed rules in a topic with a Vote option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 The area 6 fb page is the cess pool of the Internet. I'd sooner read Nancy Pelosi's fb page that subject myself to that page again. Regarding action - I agree that we have reached the point where we need forward action. I'm not sure that putting it up for a vote with one paragraph description would do it justice. I expect better results would come from detailed emails to your area director saying why you would like this setup as a provisional division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Nimitz I think and the theory behind the proposed PO Division is to not grab shooters from other divisions, but to get ones who have stopped shooting interested again and new shooters to the game. Neither if those groups are going to be present to sign your proposed petitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Nimitz I think and the theory behind the proposed PO Division is to not grab shooters from other divisions, but to get ones who have stopped shooting interested again and new shooters to the game. Neither if those groups are going to be present to sign your proposed petitions. That would be the intended purpose, but I doubt most of the "disinterested" shooters are coming to the forums. I also doubt this new Division would draw many new shooters (though it would be nice). IMO, we gain by retaining those shooters who either can't or won't go into the Open Division and need the optic to remain competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) kmca and zhunter have it right in my opinion; 1. We stand to retain competitors who may have to leave the sport due to vision issues 2. We stand to attract new members who may already possess this type of equipment but who would not be competitive in Open with this setup. 3. We stand to attract new members who like the appeal of a red-hot but cannot afford the high price tag associated with Open. This proposal is a 'leap of faith' for USPSA. It will either work or it won't, so make it provisional for a couple of years and see what happens. The big question here (and I think someone asked this earlier)... 'How will this harm USPSA ?'. If we cannot find any reason that it would cause harm to this sport and we have reason to think that it could grow or retain membership, then why wouldn't we try it ? Edited July 24, 2014 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I still say chaining the idea to Production division rules is a bad idea if you want to attract shooters that have optics on their guns already. the kind of people that have gone out of their way to mount a optic on their gun are also the kind of people that make non USPSA Production Division legal modifications to their guns. it may be as small as a after market mag catch or a bit of stippling in the wrong place but the likely hood is a large portion of them have guns that are NOT legal in Production division dot or no dot. I think we can write a better rule set that would allow a level of tinkering that would allow these guns without creating a arms race. look at Single Stack division, the modifications allowed are much more than Production but it doesn't seem to be causing a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Production Division is significantly more popular than Single-Stack, therefore I don't think the rule-set for Production is an issue. We need to prevent it from becoming an equipment race as we are trying to find a low-cost alternative to Open that allows competitors to use a dot. If we allow more customization then we increase the cost to remain competitive. Open has virtually no restrictions and look at the cost of those guns... Modified had no restrictions other than it fit in the box, and Modified was on occasion more expensive than Open. More customization of the base gun equals higher costs to remain competitive, we need a low cost alternative to Open and Production Optics seems the best solution to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) As Zack Jones mentioned, quite a discussion on the Area 6 FB page Edited July 24, 2014 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 As Zack Jones mentioned, quire a discussion on the Area 6 FB page I'm not on Facebook so I can't view any of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB45 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Edited July 24, 2014 by CB45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Doodie troll, go back to Doodie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Doodie troll, go back to Doodie. Cb is correct Waste of time, and a foolish arguement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Doodie troll, go back to Doodie. Cb is correctWaste of time, and a foolish arguement If it is waste of time, if there is no future for Production Optics, the why have at least 2 manufacturers created, marketed and are selling them? Do you think S&W thinks it's a passing fad? Companies like that don't throw millions of dollars at fads. Jim you for one should know the costs of creating, marketing and producing a gun on a large scale! These companies see it as the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I would certainly like to see this division. I think that, as had been said over and over, people would come back to the sport and we could get new members. Red dots are fun. There is no way around that. Beginners like them because they are easier than irons. People with failing vision like them cause it keeps them shooting longer. I see what everyone is saying that we shouldn't just make a division for every type of gun, but this seems like a pretty valid a growing portion of the market... I agree with the idea of getting a petition out there. But we should open it up to people that arent yet members as well. Word it as would they be more likely to join if it became a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Google "Carry gun with a red dot" and only get...wait for it... About 1,830,000 results (0.42 seconds) There are actually door kickers in the Military and LE who are using red dots on primary handguns for duty. I personally know two guys carrying polymer framed, striker fired pistols with red dots on a daily basis. To argue that it is NOT a viable and utilized system that is fast gaining traction is just ignorant. The discussion should be is this a good step/Division for USPSA to consider. I will say this...if Revo 8 minor can get a vote by the BOD, it would seem extremely biased if Production Optics can not get a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Apparently we prefer to continue the debate vice take any meaningful action .... It's time to formulate an action plan and execute it .... If this is the way most shooters approach their training it's no wonder most never make it out of B class .... We have a saying in my business: "There comes a point in every program where it's time to shoot the engineers and get on with the program" .... That time has arrived for the PO discussion ... Or how about this one: "even if you're on the right track you'll eventually get run over if you are standing still" ..... Pretty sure we haven't moved in quite some time on this ... So, for those of you out there who think this is a bad idea your point has been noted, please proceed to another thread .... For those who would like to see this happen let's do something about it .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 What if someone moves to PO, from SS, L10, Limited, or Open? They're still supporting USPSA, matches, and paying their dues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB45 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Google "Carry gun with a red dot" and only get...wait for it... About 1,830,000 results (0.42 seconds) And every link pertains to the firearms industry... awesome justification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 So who actually has seen one of these concealed carry unicorns? Discussion about Production Optics or Lim10 Optics is resources and time wasted. Learn to see what you need to see, or shoot open. Google "Carry gun with a red dot" and only get...wait for it... About 1,830,000 results (0.42 seconds) And every link pertains to the firearms industry... awesome justification Really, you looked at 1.8M links...what else are you lying about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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