Point shoot or no

[moonshoxx]

In order to speed up second shots, what percentage of shooters do you think point shoot or instinct shoot rather than tracking sights? What distances is this most prevalent at

[DWFAN]

You're assuming it's faster to point shoot? Is it?

[GOF]

At ranges under 7 yards in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE the only thing I am actually seeing is a clear front FO sight, and some 'level' of it's relationship to the rear sight. That includes the first and second shots on a target. The down 0 scoring zones are generous enough that I (and many other shooters) can get away with that 'faster' look at the sights.

Increase the distance and that doesn't work very well (at least for this shooter).

I have always believed that the degree of refinement in the sight picture that is required to make a down 0 hit ( or an acceptable hit) is totally dependent upon the distance one is from the target. It can vary among shooters.

It can also vary among the 'games'. You can get sloppy in USPSA if you do it fast enough. In IDPA you have to strike more of a balance between speed and accuracy. In ICORE you had better do no worse than a B Zone hit, or the down penalties will eat you up badly. And, if you're shooting Bs, you'd better be doing it real fast because those one second penalties for Bs can add up.

It's all situational, and shooters have to figure out where their comfort zone is in relation to the scoring zones on the target.

With all that said, I'm not sure there is one set answer to the OP's question.

[toothguy]

In order to speed up second shots, what percentage of shooters do you think point shoot or instinct shoot rather than tracking sights? What distances is this most prevalent at

I must be a freak because I almost always have worse hit quality when I have a target focus and my gun or sights are in my peripheral vision. I can run a stage in the exact same time using both a target focus and a sight focus and my sight focus run will always yield better quality hits. I have proven to myself time and time again that it takes no additional time to keep a sight focus even on the closest targets. The added benefit to this is that keeping a sight focus allows me to call my shots instead of looking at the target for holes. You can waste a boat load of stage time looking for holes to appear in the target when you have a hard target focus.

[moonshoxx]

this is very interesting as I have a buddy that places well and he claims that within 5-7 yards it is all muscle memory. He does not even look for front sight.

[calvinc78]

I'm fairly new to the game but under 7 yards I don't look at my sights it's all muscle memory... I practice drawing with my eyes closed then open them up and see where I'm at...

[PrinC]

Unless its a fun shoot I will apply the fundamentals of shooting. As was previously said, getting your sights aligned and calling the shot is the surest way of ensuring your hits will score on the target.

[steel1212]

See what you need to see to get good hits

[toothguy]

I thought it might be time to introduce you to the best post on this forum.......

Because of the high-speed nature of IPSC shooting, if one comes to IPSC without a good background in the fundamentals of shooting, I've noticed a pattern during the learning curve.

Typically we start out blazing away, so we never really learn what it means or the importance of calling each shot precisely. Then after shooting for some time, maybe years, we start to realize that hitting the targets is more important than going fast, because "you can't miss fast enough to win." During this hosing phase, we ingrain bad visual habits because the targets do not challenge our weaknesses, and after some time we just kinda point shoot most everything. Then, as we start to open up to the fact that calling is important, we're so used to looking at the wrong things while "going fast," it feels like we must really slow down in order to see enough of the sights to call the shots. At this point it becomes a psychological battle, because there's no way we're going to shoot slower.

At this point hearing a good explanation and believing in it become a factor. Furthermore, you must prove it to yourself in practice before you'll ever trust enough to do it in a match.

Spread 6 or 8 targets around the range between 8 and 15 yards, and stick no-shoots, right next to the A-boxes, on a couple of them. Draw and shoot one shot on each left to right, right down your time, then do the same thing right to left, then repeat both strings for a total of four strings. Then figure your score using the time-plus method, adding .2 of a second for each point dropped. Do this forever or until you figure out what you must do and how you must see in order to get the best score.

be

Shooting with solid fundamentals takes self control. The point shooter has no consistency, hero or zero. When shooting like a hero the point shooter is just lucky or the targets are so close no fundamentals are required.

Edited December 8, 2012 by toothguy

[Corey]

See what you need to see to get good hits

This.

If you can see a fist on brown and get 2 Alpha every time, good for you. If you need to see the sight on each one to get the same result, then you had better do it. What works for one may not work for another.

[toothguy]

See what you need to see to get good hits

This.

If you can see a fist on brown and get 2 Alpha every time, good for you. If you need to see the sight on each one to get the same result, then you had better do it. What works for one may not work for another.

Fundamentals work for everyone, that's why their called fundamentals. You can limit yourself to just being able to do well on close targets or become a good shooter no mater what the distance. If you are shooting stages and don't remember seeing your sights, slapping the trigger because you are listening for fast split times your kidding yourself.

[jwayne]

I am no master for sure........shot IDPA for about 8 years now.....that is with 2 heart attacks and I open heart with bypass's.........been out of the game for a couple years,,,,,just now getting back into shooting shape again,,,,,,,,,3-5yds point shooting works for me,,,,,,,,,5-15yds front sight with a shadow of the back sight,,,,,anything else,,get a good sight picture and gently squeeze!!!

[bigfish]

If you point shoot close targets and dont get 2 alpha those are free points that you just let get away.

[toothguy]

If the targets are within powder burn range that's a gun handling and function test. If you have learned good fundamentals you can recognize situations where they aren't needed. But if you have ingrained them, you can transition from 10yrd targets to 35yrd small poppers or a Texas star, and still have ammo left after the stage.

Edited December 9, 2012 by toothguy

[dmshozer1]

Get your timer out. Set up an array of targets you would point shoot.

Make at least three runs to get an average of time and points.

Do the same thing using just the front sight to center your hits.

The great majority of shooters will find that using the front sight will give better hits

and the same time as point shooting.

Do this a few times on different days to convince yourself of what is best for you.

Speaking for myself, some days I get great hits point shooting. The next day I can't hit anything

but every time I use the front sight, hits are better with the same time.

[GOF]

There is a very logical reason for having that funny little 'bump' out there at the end of the barrel.

[Sin-ster]

Call. Every. Shot.

Remember that distance to target is NOT the only part of this equation that's pertinent.

Think of the last time that you actually had more than one target that was: completely open; inside 5 yards; better shot stationary and in your ideal shooting stance than moving, leaning, through a port, etc.; not immediately followed by something that you absolutely HAD to "aim" at.

The only time I truly point shoot is on the draw at a target as described above-- and I've found the front post before the second shot breaks, every time. When I come across/to an array where the nasty little speed demon on my shoulder WANTS me to shoot without seeing the sights... bad things tend to happen if I can't overcome his urgings.

It may indeed be different for you-- but as I told Charlie in the thread from which toothguy quoted... I must be a freak as well, because I have to be at least somewhat aware of the relationship between the front post and the rear notch before my body will even let me break a shot.

[bobby hated]

im a USPSA B class shooter (placed 34/87 at Nat's this year) and i point shoot pretty much all open/half open targets and large steel up to about 10 yards with both eyes open. it takes some discipline to just have faith in my index and break shots without really looking, and thats what im working on to get better.

i do "see" the front sight, but i dont look at it or think about it at all. i just look at the target and muscle memory my index and break shots as fast as possible. i think somewhere in my brain its lining up that peripheral front sight picture with the target, but its not something that i consciously think about.

i actually find that my hits are much faster, double taps tighter and i get more alphas when i have the discipline to not look at my sights or my hits and just trust that i got my hits.

Edited December 16, 2012 by bobby hated

[steel1212]

Ignore the dropped mag lol. Look at the first 6 shots. Point shoot range right? I was down zero on that target, there where lots of people that weren't. I saw my sights for every shot. I may not have the fastest splits in the world but I would rather have good hits.

[toothguy]

im a USPSA B class shooter (placed 34/87 at Nat's this year) and i point shoot pretty much all open/half open targets and large steel up to about 10 yards with both eyes open. it takes some discipline to just have faith in my index and break shots without really looking, and thats what im working on to get better.

i do "see" the front sight, but i dont look at it or think about it at all. i just look at the target and muscle memory my index and break shots as fast as possible. i think somewhere in my brain its lining up that peripheral front sight picture with the target, but its not something that i consciously think about.

i actually find that my hits are much faster, double taps tighter and i get more alphas when i have the discipline to not look at my sights or my hits and just trust that i got my hits.

Speed will only get you so far. You will get to a point real soon where you won't progress any further until you learn the fundamentals. It takes discipline and constant practice to ingrain the fundamentals. You are handicapping your awareness by missing most of the info the gun is trying to tell you. If you let it, your pride will hold you back.

[DWFAN]

I think it says something that the M&GM shooters posting in this thread are not advocating point shooting.

Edited December 16, 2012 by DWFAN

[Raudi]

Guys,

I think that viewing this issue as point shooting vs aimed shooting is the heart of the problem. What I would advocate is to view this as a threefold problem: point shooting - watching the sights - aiming.

There are distances where a solid shooter can get away with just firing the gun to where it naturally points and still get his hits. But conversely at these distances my sights are going to be there too. In other words: You draw and without any aiming, 2 things happen: 1) The gun points at the target and 2) the sights point at the target. Now if my sights are already pointing at the target, what is the point in not looking at them?

Visually verifying AND correcting the sightpicture does cost time. But only visually verifying where the sights are does not, IMHO. At the distances where one can reasonably expect to get away with not watching the sights, correcting them is hardly ever necessary. Some may ask, why bother to look at the sights, if you do not take the time to aim (i.e. correcting the imperfect sightpicture)? I'd argue that there is a good reason to observe the sights: If something in the process of naturally pointing the gun at the target goes wrong, e.g. triggercontrol, a bad grip or what not, I may still miss that target, but I KNOW I missed it, and therefore, I can immediately fire a make up shot should that be necessary or I can transition to the next target without hesitation, if it is not.

Knowing where your hits are going to be does two things for overall performance: 1) It saves you valuable points and 2) it reduces the overall time, because hesitation costs time. If all is going well, both methods will have equal results (in terms of speed and accuracy), but if somethung goes south, and over the course of a match it will sooner or later, since we are all humans, having a good idea of where your sights were, is going to save the day. Therefore I cannot think of a good reason for point shooting.

Obviously, as the distance to the targets increases, you will start to really aim the gun, which means you will start correcting the sightpicture until adequate for the given distance.

For the reasons given above, I think, that using the old point shooting vs aiming dichotomy is rather misleading.

[Calmwater]

Brian's book addresses different sight pictures, target vs sight focus at different ranges in detail. I can't recommend the book enough...... I wouldn't say I can do it, but I know several shooters that can shoot from their index with sufficient accuracy at close range to call their shots.......

[Sin-ster]

Brian's book addresses different sight pictures, target vs sight focus at different ranges in detail.

Personally, I found the most pertinent/main point of that entire (detailed) section to be:

You don't choose these types of focus; you simply experience them.

That entire section, to me, was basically instruction on how to call your shots. ("Be aware of what you see.")

Now if I could just stop whacking the trigger...

[Tuflehundon]

I was just talking about this with some shooters this past Friday at a local shoot. We had 4 targets at the end of a stage that were fairly close, within 6 meters. I was one of the 1st shooters on that stage, and they were commenting on how fast I double tapped each target, and still got good hits. At that range I actually catch myself looking at the target and shooting by instinct. I am still getting Alpha's.

I trained in the Military to point shoot at that range, and we spent a lot of time training to do it with a rifle and a pistol. I can do it well, but some of the guys tried it and didn't do as well. Shots were faster for them, but the hits weren't as good, mostly the 2nd shoot. All shots were on target for them, but they were Delta's. One of the guys discovered he could do it well too.

It really depends on the person, and the training they have. If you spend the time to learn it, you can do it without even seeing your sights. But most people will still do better if they take the time to get a good sight picture.

Anything past 6 or 7 meters and I will always get a good sight picture before shooting.