Club Match Shooters - Consumers vs Helpers

[remoandiris]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

[Mapzter]

We expect everybody to help set up and most to help tear down. If you don't, and haven't worked out an arrangement with the Match Director in advance, you don't shoot. That works well, for the most part.

[Modoc]

Reading this has been enlightening and I see a bit of myself in every post/shooter here. For myself, USPSA is a bit more of a relaxation sport since I MD/Stats/TO at a smaller SASS club twice a month. Now, I do help tape, shag brass, and reset at the USPSA matches along with clean-up, but for me, it is a break for me from the responsibility that I have on two other weekends of the month. I am getting better on getting help on the SASS side especially with the announcement at the shooter's meeting that the "Match isn't over until everything is put away.". Not a big issue when you only have 15-20 shooter.

Of course in silhouette, each shooter has to reset their rack of targets and re-paint for the next shooter in line, but that is a whole different animal

[Supermoto]

Of course people are consumers. The club offers a product, charges for the product. People expect to receive what they paid for. If you can't offer what you are charging for, then don't. If you volunteered to produce the product, then do it.

Why do we expect people to make the product they are paying for?

[Nik Habicht]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

That is frankly unacceptable. You can't "lose" a scoresheet or elect not to publish everyone's results. It's passive-aggressive BS. If you've really got someone not working during the match -- not resetting or working as an RO -- hand 'em their entry fee back, and invite them not to return until they can participate as required....

[Nik Habicht]

Of course people are consumers. The club offers a product, charges for the product. People expect to receive what they paid for. If you can't offer what you are charging for, then don't. If you volunteered to produce the product, then do it.

Why do we expect people to make the product they are paying for?

That argument might work, if the club was making a profit, or if anyone was getting paid. Realistically though, all your match entry fee covers is expenses....

Prize money

USPSA fees

Targets

Supplies

Replacement or expansion of steel and prob inventory

Scoresheets/scoring devices/programs/timers

Host Club fee -- which at our place pays for the maintenance of the grounds/range

[Supermoto]

That argument might work, if the club was making a profit, or if anyone was getting paid. Realistically though, all your match entry fee covers is expenses....

Prize money

USPSA fees

Targets

Supplies

Replacement or expansion of steel and prob inventory

Scoresheets/scoring devices/programs/timers

Host Club fee -- which at our place pays for the maintenance of the grounds/range

Profit does not make a difference. You want people to work the match, make it part of the product that is being sold. Volunteering is just that...voluntary.

[Wideload]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

That is frankly unacceptable. You can't "lose" a scoresheet or elect not to publish everyone's results. It's passive-aggressive BS. If you've really got someone not working during the match -- not resetting or working as an RO -- hand 'em their entry fee back, and invite them not to return until they can participate as required....

I see your point of view. However, you usually only find out after the fact that a shooter had to left early without any explanation.

I understand stuff happens to everyone and they may have to cut out early on occasion but when it's always the same shooter that magically dissapears after they are done shooting AND they have been advised that their scores may not get posted if this behavior continues, they should not be surprised by it.

[Sarge]

For some odd reason I agree with NIK. I probably get more upset than anybody I know when shooters don't help out but I would never consider holding out scores. When making the argument that they are paying for a service I especially agree that they are paying to have their scores recorded and sent in.

In my case in this ongoing struggle, I am not talking about lazy shooters who don't paste, paint or whatever. We generally know who those people are and do our best to prod them into helping. Sometimes it takes a little humiliation to get the point across.

What I have a problem with is the 50 some odd shooters who congregate in the registration area and watch as we make trips back and forth from barn to pits and don't get off there dead asses and offer to help. I'm not talking about other MD's who set up their own matches around me. I know who they are and I know they just want to shoot once in a while. I understand some have medical problems. I understand that at some point everybody has something come up that prevents them from helping. I am talking about the same old people that sit watching month in and month out at my match as well as most of the other local matches in the area. That's right, we notice things like that! And you are not fooling anybody.

And, no I am not talking about helping to tear down a stage. For the most part the entire squad gets that done just fine. I ask that they stack everything up in the bay so we can haul it to the barn. Getting it to the barn is a major issue with me. I also believe that the match is not over until the entire range is restored to it's original condition. Yet out of 59 shooters this month there were 4 of us still putting stuff away 2 hours after the match. And to top it off I had to go to nearly every bay and pick up garbage off the ground. It seems that tearing down a stage does not include picking up the water bottles, pop cans, paster boxes, etc.

I guess this is why the last MD gave up trying in mid season. It is extremely frustrating to think that people think their time is more valuable than mine just because I stepped up to MD rather than let the match die. Wearing the MD hat does not mean we should do the work of 50 people.

[dukduk]

I wonder if providing a caddy service would help. If you are not a helper, then pay for a caddie to do the work for you. It might be cool to have someone carry your bag and tape targets for you.

I have a professional caddy, her titled is Wife. Does mag loads and lens cleanings too. Won't last long as she wants to start competing as well.

[MoNsTeR]

The average at each match is 70-80 shooters and it takes most of us 2, maybe 3 hours to shoot and leave.

(off topic) How do you run 80 shooters in 3 hours?

[AzYooper]

The average at each match is 70-80 shooters and it takes most of us 2, maybe 3 hours to shoot and leave.

(off topic) How do you run 80 shooters in 3 hours?

Shooters show up between 8am and 9:30 am. There are no squads and no order for the 4 stages, but you can go from stage to stage with your friends. Each shooter spends about 3 hours shooting, but the match lasts until 12-12:30 pm.

Last Saturday was 5 stages, two on the same bay and this slowed the match a little. There were 90 shooters that day (Rio Hosemasters) I started at 9:30 and finished at 1pm.

[Maksim]

The thing that bugs me most... is people bitching at registration why the match does not start on time at 10am. Obviously the match staff are taking as long as possible because they want to waste more time at the range.

Tear down is pretty good, but it is tough to consistently get 6 quality stages designed, and enough people to come show up early and help. Best of all, the shooters that come, see you working on the stage, do not offer to help, and at the same time, go around to look at the stages before the match starts. lol.

I get it from both sides... but local matches are all volunteer.

[lugnut]

A topic that makes me crazy..... IMO we're all volunteers- certainly at the club level. Major matches where people are paying over $150- let them be consumers. In either case- EVERYONE needs to tape, reset props where appropriate and pick up brass. I get completely crazed when I'm out taping and reseting and I see the same people yapping all Freaking day long... or when they keep doing walk throughs when everyone else is taping. I actually tell the staff that they need to let people know that EVERYONE needs to help with this.

At my club- people that set up, SO/RO, etc shoot free.... a VERY small token of appreciation for the work they put in. Even when we get our $20 waived- we're really not getting paid- we could all make more at McDonalds. There just isn't enough money to really compensate the staff reasonably. If we did get paid reasonable money- the consumers would likely all go away due to high costs. This is why we all need to help a bit IMO.

Clubs that make staff (heavy helpers) pay anything are F'd up in my mind. I'll always help scoring or run a few people with the timers to help out. But if I set up and RO... and don't get my costs waived... that's just crazy. That's a good way to lose good help.

I encourage my local IDPA "management" to waive match fees if people set up OR SO. Basically if we can cover our costs we should pay out what we can to get people to help more. It helps prevent burn out and lightens the load for the regular helpers. That's a great thing.

[lugnut]

I guess this is why the last MD gave up trying in mid season. It is extremely frustrating to think that people think their time is more valuable than mine just because I stepped up to MD rather than let the match die. Wearing the MD hat does not mean we should do the work of 50 people.

This is why everyone needs to pitch it if at all possible, whenever possible.

[remoandiris]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

That is frankly unacceptable. You can't "lose" a scoresheet or elect not to publish everyone's results. It's passive-aggressive BS.

As a MD, you're entitled to your opinion and your own method of handling problems at your match. If I found myself in the same position again, I would use what I have seen work. Instead of getting aggravated by people not doing their part, those people would get a VERY clear message...work or suffer the consequences.

[Craig N]

I think it comes down to number of shooters in a squad. You got the shooter and on deck and the guy/gal who just shot reloading mags......there's 3 You got the RO and Score Keeper now we are to 5......if you got 6 people in a squad you got 1 to reset. I have usually seen about 7 or 8 in a squad when I shot this summer. So it wasn't too bad for 5 stages + classifer.

IDPA on the other hand has 11 to 14 people per squad for 7 stages and with less targets to paste and steel to reset.........some of us make a game of seeing who can get to the target 1st to tape it FOOT RACE! But the up side to IDPA is if you get to having a good discussion you don't feel like your slacking if you don't run out there 2 or 3 times and not paste because there is more people out there than targets!

But most people around here help tape and reset.......... the later in the day might get slower but they still help.

And as for paying range officers.......... Alpha Mike....no that's a double......no it's Alpha Mike......I PAY YOUR SALARY IM THE BOSS!!! You know someone would pull that trick.

[steel1212]

Of course people are consumers. The club offers a product, charges for the product. People expect to receive what they paid for. If you can't offer what you are charging for, then don't. If you volunteered to produce the product, then do it.

Why do we expect people to make the product they are paying for?

So what happens when everybody does that? Everybody shows up at 10:30 expecting to pay their 15-20$ and shoot a match? Guess what there won't be a match. The whole sport is volunteer not just a select few. Sure the club gets money to run the match but in the grand scheme of things it's not much when you consider the land the range is in and all the props and what not that it takes to run a match.

To say that people should just be able to show up and get catered to is BS.

[Supermoto]

So what happens when everybody does that? Everybody shows up at 10:30 expecting to pay their 15-20$ and shoot a match? Guess what there won't be a match. The whole sport is volunteer not just a select few. Sure the club gets money to run the match but in the grand scheme of things it's not much when you consider the land the range is in and all the props and what not that it takes to run a match.

To say that people should just be able to show up and get catered to is BS.

The whole sport isn't volunteer, as evident by this thread

If you volunteered to run a match, make sure you have enough help to run it. If you need more help, figure it out before the match.

I'm tired of hearing the bitching afterwards because they did not plan beforehand. Get the job done you said you would do.

[lugnut]

So what happens when everybody does that? Everybody shows up at 10:30 expecting to pay their 15-20$ and shoot a match? Guess what there won't be a match. The whole sport is volunteer not just a select few. Sure the club gets money to run the match but in the grand scheme of things it's not much when you consider the land the range is in and all the props and what not that it takes to run a match.

To say that people should just be able to show up and get catered to is BS.

The whole sport isn't volunteer, as evident by this thread

If you volunteered to run a match, make sure you have enough help to run it. If you need more help, figure it out before the match.

I'm tired of hearing the bitching afterwards because they did not plan beforehand. Get the job done you said you would do.

Mike I'm surprised at your attitude. Especially considering you are one to step up to help when a MD is in need. It's not a perfect world. For the most part volunteers are reliable - but not always. So yeah, sometimes the burden falls on the MD and a few others. To me, if we all help lessen the load and help out when we can.... match/staff won't get burned out. That's the way it should be. Other than me... I've never heard most MDs whine after matches. Like I said- $15/$20 doesn't hardly cover shit when all the materials and range fees are covered. No one around here is making money I can tell you that for sure. So if the "customer" can't help out once in a while... that's a damn shame in this sport.

[waktasz]

The thing that bugs me most... is people bitching at registration why the match does not start on time at 10am. Obviously the match staff are taking as long as possible because they want to waste more time at the range.

Tear down is pretty good, but it is tough to consistently get 6 quality stages designed, and enough people to come show up early and help. Best of all, the shooters that come, see you working on the stage, do not offer to help, and at the same time, go around to look at the stages before the match starts. lol.

I get it from both sides... but local matches are all volunteer.

Your club is the only one I hear people complaining in this manner. Maybe people don't want to do anything extra to help you guys because the people at your club are the least friendly in the entire section, or possibly all of Area 8.

The later you start, and the longer (5 weeks) it takes to get results posted, and the fact you don't upload scores to the USPSA website just further turns more and more people off from wanting to volunteer. I don't blame people for shooting and scooting if that is the kind of product that is being offered.

[Nik Habicht]

That argument might work, if the club was making a profit, or if anyone was getting paid. Realistically though, all your match entry fee covers is expenses....

Prize money

USPSA fees

Targets

Supplies

Replacement or expansion of steel and prob inventory

Scoresheets/scoring devices/programs/timers

Host Club fee -- which at our place pays for the maintenance of the grounds/range

Profit does not make a difference. You want people to work the match, make it part of the product that is being sold. Volunteering is just that...voluntary.

You're not getting it -- you're not paying for a product; there is no product. A product, by definition, is something tangible that you can walk away with.....

And you're not paying for a service -- because I don't work for you. (At least not for free..... )

What you're spending money is some of the costs involved in an activity that we (mostly) enjoy together. So yes, USPSA expects you to work, to some extent at every match you shoot. There -- you've been told, now you know it's part of the match experience..... :devil:

[Nik Habicht]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

That is frankly unacceptable. You can't "lose" a scoresheet or elect not to publish everyone's results. It's passive-aggressive BS. If you've really got someone not working during the match -- not resetting or working as an RO -- hand 'em their entry fee back, and invite them not to return until they can participate as required....

I see your point of view. However, you usually only find out after the fact that a shooter had to left early without any explanation.

I understand stuff happens to everyone and they may have to cut out early on occasion but when it's always the same shooter that magically dissapears after they are done shooting AND they have been advised that their scores may not get posted if this behavior continues, they should not be surprised by it.

I understand the problem -- I just think it needs to be addressed by the match director. I've had to counsel the occasional shooter -- but I've never been passive-aggressive about it. We talk about the problem like grown-ups, and I explain what the minimum requirements are to participate, and why they need to exist. Usually I don't have issues after that....

[Nik Habicht]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers.

That is frankly unacceptable. You can't "lose" a scoresheet or elect not to publish everyone's results. It's passive-aggressive BS.

As a MD, you're entitled to your opinion and your own method of handling problems at your match. If I found myself in the same position again, I would use what I have seen work. Instead of getting aggravated by people not doing their part, those people would get a VERY clear message...work or suffer the consequences.

It's not just an MD opinion. It's an SC opinion. And I can guarantee that if were just a competitor at a match, and heard of the MD "handling" the situation in this manner, I'd be on the phone to the SC. If that didn't get me anywhere, the AD would be next on the list, followed by the BOD.....

There are acceptable ways to resolve the situation -- you can have the conversation, and invite the competitor not to participate until he's on board with his responsibilities. But once you let him participate, you need to publish and submit his scores. (Unless you're planning on communicating that decision to the competitor, along with a refund of his entry fee....)

[steel1212]

So what happens when everybody does that? Everybody shows up at 10:30 expecting to pay their 15-20$ and shoot a match? Guess what there won't be a match. The whole sport is volunteer not just a select few. Sure the club gets money to run the match but in the grand scheme of things it's not much when you consider the land the range is in and all the props and what not that it takes to run a match.

To say that people should just be able to show up and get catered to is BS.

The whole sport isn't volunteer, as evident by this thread

If you volunteered to run a match, make sure you have enough help to run it. If you need more help, figure it out before the match.

I'm tired of hearing the bitching afterwards because they did not plan beforehand. Get the job done you said you would do.

And I'm tired if listening to people bitching when they show up at 10:30 and are pissed off because the stages aren't ready for them yet. If there is MDs setup crews ROs getting paid that's great but that isn't the norm. If you show up at 10:30 and the stages aren't done yet guess what get your lazy ass out of bed and help. If not STFU.