First Loser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 CZ Shadow with an adjustable sight milled into the slide. Not legal in IPSC production but legal in USPSA production division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I agree that 5.2.5.2 seems to muddy the water a bit, however, 6.2.5.1 pretty clearly sets out the penalty for using equipment during a COF that does not meet the requirements of your declared division. If a woman is using a belt in production division that is not at waist level during a COF, she is going to open division where belts around the hips of women are allowed. (Note that there is no exception for belt placement for women in production.) I would suggest that the language of 5.2.5.2 presumes that the illegal equipment has not been used in a COF at the point of its discovery. There's two principles at work here -- we realize that as competitors move from stage to stage, carrying a range bag, the position of their holster or pouch may shift, tension screws may loosen, etc. That's why ROs are encouraged to look at a competitor's equipment prior to the start of a stage -- so that an item whose position has shifted can be readjusted... That's a far cry from shooting a stage with equipment that out of position. If we check your mag pouch placement and find that they are further out than 2 inches and locked down, well, you won't be getting a chance to fix that if you've already shot stages. That'll be a move to no score, or to open, depending on the specific violation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) CZ Shadow with an adjustable sight milled into the slide. Not legal in IPSC production but legal in USPSA production division. fact or fiction? How do you know she had this done?...there are adjustable sights made for the CZ. Did you SEE the gun up close, handle it, etc? I find it odd you are posting this information, especially when it has nothing to do with the USPSA Nationals. Edited October 18, 2012 by Mo Hepworth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I looked at her gun at the USPSA Nats. Had adjustable sights. Did not look like they were milled in like the Shadow Target. They looked like they were in the factory dovetail, just like the new sights from CZ Custom that don't require milling. But I'm sure there are more rumors about specific shooters cheating we can throw out there. Oh wait that violates forum rules and we should probably knock it off before a mod slaps us around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) She did in fact have secondary belt loops added to her skirt. The original belt loops on her skirt were at the height one would call waist level. There were additional belt loops added beneath these loops that allowed her to drop her entire rig lower, at hip level. This is not speculation, or rumor. I shot with her all three days. 5.2.3.1 does not apply when speaking of production division according the production matrix/chart in Appendix D. 5.2.3.1 states that: Female competitors may be permitted (if so authorized in Appendix D) to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major). Dropping to hip level would therefore not be allowed. Or am I reading it wrong? Edited October 18, 2012 by JaeOne3345 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 When she shot our stage, I noticed the skirt (duh), and like most skirts the waist was pretty high. I am not a very experienced RO, but I was looking at holster and magazine positions of most of the production shooters, mostly just to make sure I know when my own gear is in compliance when I shoot a major. The position of Svetlana's gunbelt did not seem at all unusual or different from our many other female competitors, many of whom wear fairly low-waisted pants. I don't blame them, I wear prefer cowboy-cut jeans (fairly low waist) over BDU-type fatigues (fairly high waist) for shooting, partly because the belt rides lower and stuff flops around less. Of course I don't take high-waisted garments and sew lower belt loops on them. Hip level (as defined by the top of the lateral part of the femur) is like ghetto-prison low. I saw one or two gentlemen with their gunbelts that low. I presume the large protruding girth in front hanging over the belt was the reason. I wonder if their belts got carefully measured... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 I think you are reading it right - I guess the big question here is how to interpret 5.2.3 : "The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops." Did she "Technically" have 3 belt loops? Guess that is a stretch since she added them herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 interesting. thanks for your posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I think you are reading it right - I guess the big question here is how to interpret 5.2.3 : "The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops." Did she "Technically" have 3 belt loops? Guess that is a stretch since she added them herself. and then we get into "clothing". I could make my own clothing with my own belt loops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOne3345 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I think you are reading it right - I guess the big question here is how to interpret 5.2.3 : "The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops." Did she "Technically" have 3 belt loops? Guess that is a stretch since she added them herself. She did have three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 I got to admit - that is "GAMING" at its finest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I think you are reading it right - I guess the big question here is how to interpret 5.2.3 : "The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops." Did she "Technically" have 3 belt loops? Guess that is a stretch since she added them herself. DNROI's opinion in the 2011 Jan/Feb Front Sight was that the belt loops could be sewn on afterwards. I'd point to the archive, but that won't get into the window until next year, so in the meantime I'll point to the text I quoted from the article: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103964&view=findpost&p=1372997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 We have several issues being discussed here. The issue, as I understand it, was not belt loops or the 2 inch rule for equipment. It was that there is no exception in production for women to wear a belt below waist level. Maybe having a high waisted skirt on and the belt significantly below that just made her belt location too obvious to ignore. I worked a stage at the Nationals this year, and on our stage we had concerns over several ladies about how low the belt was being worn. None were as obviously low as the one in question. I think that local clubs and even larger state and area matches are doing their shooters a disservice by not pointing out problems with equipment. I would love to see some enforcement of the 2 inch rule from the inner belt. I bet we would have had half the limited shooters at Nationals shooting for no score if someone would have walked around with a tape measure. That is a subject for a whole other post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Deacon - it is my understanding of rule 5.2.3 (I'm not an RO) that you can EITHER be at waist level OR through 3 belt loops - the big key word to that rule is "OR" it does not say "AND" and therefore by the way that is it written means you only have to meet 1 of the requirements NOT BOTH. Am I wrong in that is how it is read? 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. ETA - so the 1st part of the rule says at waist level - the 2nd part says at waist lever OR through 3 belt loops - interesting Edited October 19, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 You are not wrong in reading in that way.I read it the same way as well. Unfortunately, as I pointed out in later in the thread, DNROI reads the "OR" as an "AND" in the case of that particular rule. Of course also as noted in that thread, that is still an "opinion" in Front Sight, and not yet a NROI ruling, but typically, DNROI's opinion is a strong indicator of how a ruling would be written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Deacon - it is my understanding of rule 5.2.3 (I'm not an RO) that you can EITHER be at waist level OR through 3 belt loops - the big key word to that rule is "OR" it does not say "AND" and therefore by the way that is it written means you only have to meet 1 of the requirements NOT BOTH. Am I wrong in that is how it is read? 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. ETA - so the 1st part of the rule says at waist level - the 2nd part says at waist lever OR through 3 belt loops - interesting Brandon, the second statement is a definition of HOW the belt must be affixed to the waist, not WHERE. The WHERE is defined by the first sentence. Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 Gotcha - thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Rule 5.2.3 has two distinct sentences One deals with the location of the belt and the second sentence deals with how it is secured there. Location: The rule is that the belt must be worn at waist level. Secured: The belt while being worn at that location must also be secured. It can either be secured by going through 3 belt loops, or the competitor can use whatever means that they wish as long as it is securely attached. The "or" in the rule gives the shooter an option in how the belt is secured, not its location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Mark beat me to it while I was typing my reply. Great minds ya know. Edited October 19, 2012 by deacon12224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) Am I the only one that would like a better definition of 'waist level'? or is there one out there that I'm not aware of? Based on what I've been reading, it seems to me that it would be possible to go to a normal store and buy a normal pair of pants that normal people wear and put a gun belt on them and have some people claim that the belt is not at 'waist level'. Looking at the diagram in appendix makes it *appear* that my waist is supposed to be above my hipbone, and that perhaps the bottom of my belt is supposed to be at or above my hipbone..... That is a little unreasonable if it is actually interpreted the way the drawing appears. I'm a normal athletic 51 yr old man, and I don't one pair of jeans that puts even the top of my belt above the hipbone (my wife wouldn't let me out of the house with old-man high-water pants). Is it only an issue if i wear something high-waisted and fashionable and then sew lower belt loops on? Edited October 19, 2012 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Am I the only one that thinks placement of mag pouches and belt location is BS? Who,gives a shi$t about that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonsine Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) I think 70 speedlimit on interstate is bogus but Mr. Trooper reminded me that it is not only a good idea but the LAW.... Maybe it was because the placement of her belt "stuck out" when compared to the other lady shooters.....like a bright red car among a bunch of grey, black and silver ones.....attached is a small comparison of hers as compared to several other lady shooters......whether you know the rules or not it does stick out as different from the others.....if all the other cars are moving along at 85 mph in a 70 not as noticable as as one running 85 when the others are going 70....might be something to consider for future matches. The top 3 left pictures are of the shooter that got bumped.....the others are different shooters. Edited October 19, 2012 by moonsine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) maybe this is the one thing that USPSA could do that IDPA does. Do a equipment check on sign in day. put your rig on and let the RM and a CRO, or the crony crew do a inspection and correct the shooter before the match starts. if you show up the next day to shoot with a mag pouch, holster or belt incorrect configuration then you shoot for no score, end of story if you diviate from the rule book. Edited October 19, 2012 by JohnRodriguez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Pledger Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 maybe this is the one thing that USPSA could do that IDPA does. Do a equipment check on sign in day. put your rig on and let the RM and a CRO, or the crony crew do a inspection and correct the shooter before the match starts. if you show up the next day to shoot with a mag pouch, holster or belt incorrect configuration then you shoot for no score, end of story if you diviate from the rule book. IPSC does this for all Level III / IV / V, you have an equipment card which is filled out either by the RO/CRO or yourself on the 1st stage you start on at a match. When you goto the next stage, you pass the card to the RO/CRO they inspect your equipment again and sign, if changes are noticed, or an RO suspects something funny, you push it upstairs to the Area CRO and or RM for further clarification. You need to keep this card for the entire match. As mentioned in another thread, if this had been done at the start of the match, maybe this person might not have been bumped to open. But then again the onus is still on the competitor to KNOW the rules for the matches they are attending especially if you are going from either IPSC to USPSA or vice versa. Cheers .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Actually, the current rulebook does state that match officials should check a competitors equipment prior to any attempt at a COF. Don't think I have ever seen that done in any sort of formal way other than a clipboard RO casually checking as they step to the line. Of course the rule says "should" and not "shall". 6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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