38SuperDub Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I was going through all the videos Paul posted today from Nationals and saw below on a particular video. What ever happened to "Hands Relaxed at Sides" - more and more I see people doing things like this - seems its quite far from "RELAXED" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 CROs & ROs don't enforce it -- when that happens, people will continue to cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jriera Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The RO looks very relaxed ... Tori not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amish_rabbi Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 same thing as the FAST drill on pistol training where everyone starts with their hands on their belt buckles, because you know, thats how you walk around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 I really think this is something the RO's need to start paying attention to more also - This is clearly not relaxed a sides and yet nobody says anything - and not to pick on Tori - it was just obvious on her video - I see it at almost every match that I shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Look at Jessie Duff on Stage 13 of 2012 National Championship. Assuming WSB does state Hands-at-sides, well, then that's some serious farce. Edited October 15, 2012 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I see people doing this all the time. Until it's enforced more regularly I should start doing that too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Doesn't seem that bad to me. Her weak hand may be a bit far from relaxed and/or "at sides" but her strong hand is where it ought to be. I've certainly seen shooters take a much looser interpretation, with elbows significantly bent, etc. In general I see people comply with "hands relaxed at sides" reasonably well. What I constantly see people try to cheat is "wrists above respective shoulders". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Wow that video of Jessie was pretty bad. Her had was way out in front def not at her side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) People will always try to game the system whether their intention is to cheat or not and I'm not saying anyone in the videos mentioned is trying to cheat. I agree, the RO needs to insure the shooter is in the proper starting position and clearly the RO in the video has not done that nor did two other ROs at other stages Tori shot. Edited October 15, 2012 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Wow that video of Jessie was pretty bad. Her had was way out in front def not at her side. Her hand is clearly bent and in front of her body on every stage, big time advantage. Edited October 15, 2012 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 IMO, the direction comes from the top. If shooters go to Nationals and are allowed to start in the position shown in the picture, what do you think is going to happen if they show up for a state match and some nobody RO tries to correct their start position? It seems to me that NROI is OK with these versions of "hands relaxed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 If this can happen at Nationals which is right under NROI's nose what chance do we have at the local level? Who knows what stuff goes on? While I agree with monster that I have seen worse this is by no means relaxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Yep...everything starts from the top. I guess I'm a rules kind of guy. Within the bounds of the rules -- as loosely interpreted as they may be -- competitors should be able to "game" all they want; however, I think the line between "gaming" and "breaking" the rules is quite clear. I competitively play and have played many "mainstream" sports, if you get caught blatantly breaking the rules, there's meaningful consequence. What is USPSA/IPSC? It's just a rhetorical question. Edited October 15, 2012 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Niether of those arms are relaxed. One is back, one if forward. At least put them at your sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 In the interest of fairness, could this picture have been snapped right when the buzzer went off? Could she be in the process of drawing? I doubt it but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Edited to protect the guilty....I had commented on this, but when I reviewed some videos of myself, I must plead guilty. I didn't even realize my weakhand was drifting that far forward....I'll be more cognizant of this in the future, thanks for bringing this up. Edited October 15, 2012 by h4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Its from a video - watch the video - along with the one referenced above - they were 100% before the buzzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Here is the other one - how is this one not obvious: http://www.britinusa.net/livelinks_2012usnatslp/13Jessie.Duff.mov?width=640&height=360 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I think part of the issue is that the phrases "hands relaxed at sides" and "hands above shoulders" have a lot of slack in them and we, as shooters and stage designers, have let that slack be played in the name of "freestyle". One way to stop this would be better, more specific starting positions in the stage descriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Come guys... who in God's name would argue that any of these people's arms are "relaxed at sides"? Do they (not just the people in these pics) stand like this when casually talking with people? I have some local friends that do this... it makes me nutty. I might start doing it as well as I think it IS a significant advantage IMO.... Hands above shoulders.. how does one "game" that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Hands above shoulders.. how does one "game" that??? If it doesn't say respective shoulders, some people will have both hands over their strong hand shoulder. If you try this out, you'll notice less arm and wrist movement is required to build a two handed grip quickly. As for the hands above respective shoulders, some people will have their fingertips touching the sides of the brim of their ballcaps. e.g hands are at around face level and in front of them. So mechanically, there is an advantage because less axes of rotation is needed to go through to get a grip on the gun for the strong hand, and shorter distance to travel for the weak hand to travel to build the grip. Edited October 15, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Come guys... who in God's name would argue that any of these people's arms are "relaxed at sides"? Do they (not just the people in these pics) stand like this when casually talking with people? I have some local friends that do this... it makes me nutty. I might start doing it as well as I think it IS a significant advantage IMO.... Hands above shoulders.. how does one "game" that??? Dave, you never saw the "Quasimoto" stance? Back bent so much the hands were almost as close as a hands at side start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hands above shoulders.. how does one "game" that??? If it doesn't say respective shoulders, some people will have both hands over their strong hand shoulder. If you try this out, you'll notice less arm and wrist movement is required to build a two handed grip quickly. And fingers are part of the hand so hands can actually be quite low with fingertips above shoulders. I thought this was the reason "wrists above shoulders" came to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Yes, the videos are quite obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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