Are new rules needed for back to back stages where gun is kept hot?

[Sarge]

We don't need another range command. It's all we can do to get ROs to use the proper range commands as is.

I don't agree with your stance of "Our RO's are too stupid to follow the rules we already have so why make the rules any better/complex".

I don't know about you, but I don't want to limit the quality or depth of our rules because the lowest common denominators are either to (should be too)stupid or unmotivated to learn and use the proper rules.

I can't find where bbb said anything resembling what you quoted his stance as being. I'll read it again though just to be sure. Just read it again and, nope, not seeing it.

I know quite a few "smart" RO's who find it a challenge to always use the proper range commands.

Is there really no way to work around the occasional, oddball, "two stages together", scenario without thinking it needs a new rule. If the match staff comes up with a coherent, effective command, and it is pointed out to the shooter, then it is his responsibility to follow the command.

I also don't think we should use them. They really don't save much time.

As for the whole bumping to Open thing. Wasn't the A5 match held before the final ruling was issued regarding mags in front pockets?

[ncopenshooter]

I'd say this scenario doesn't need a range command. It does need one less person as an RO as they apparently find it necessary to punish as many shooters as possible.

[Skydiver]

Put a mag back into the front pocket, is not "using the mag" that is currently in the pocket. How does one get bumped into open for putting a spent mag into your front pocket?

This was the point I was trying to make in the other thread but I was told I was "overthinking" it.

Notice the word "spent". Spent meaning "used".

The new wording for the rule says:

... Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed, providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

The course of fire starts at "Make Ready" and ends after "Range is Clear." One start signal for the first stage has already been given.

So this is typically not a problem because of the other NROI ruling that states:

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

And this is why I believed that as long as both rulings stayed in place most of the cases are covered.

But in this situation, the case is not covered. The shooter is not unloading. He is putting away his spent (aka used) magazine, and reloading a fresh magazine.

This is just like the other point I was trying to make: if the shooter drops his gun after he finishes shooting his first stage but before he moves to the next stage. It's a DQ, right? This is because the course of fire has not yet ended. So since the CoF has not ended, and the shooter is not unloading, but reloading for his next stage, it's a bump to open, unfortunately.

I know it sucks. I know that intent of the rulings are to protect him. But as the rules are currently written, the bump to open is justified. As CHA-LEE pointed out, this is a hole in the rules. I think that easiest way out without a significant rule change is to simple use 8.3.6.1, but use the specific words "If you are finished, unload, prepare for your next string, and holster." That way the shooter is given the legal cover of unloading the gun as provided in the NROI ruling, and at the same time, getting the shooter reloaded for the next stage.

As an aside: If in a normal single stage, single string course of fire, a SS or Production shooter is going along shooting and does a reload with retention (perhaps to keep mags out of the mud), and stashes the used magazine in a front pocket, is this a bump to open? Or is it only a bump to open if he pulls the partially spent magazine back out again and loads it back into his gun when he discovers he needs a few more rounds?

Edit after: Moved the aside comment to the other thread. Fixed a couple of typos.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Skydiver

[DoubleL]

CHA-LEE, I see what you are getting at. Your saying that the RO moving a shooter from end of stage one to start position of stage two, while hot, isn't specifically addressed. Right?

IMHO it is clearly addressed and there is no need to alter anything. Shooter finishes first COF. IYAFUASC. Hammer down. Holster. Range is clear. Clear the range for the next shooter. Make ready. Shooter ready? Standby. Beep. Bangbangbang. IFYAFUASC. Hammer down. Holster. Range is clear. Score and reset BOTH.

Seems to me the rules don't want shooters moving from stage to stage while hot. Also seems that would be the safest method. So what exactly is this hole? I must be missing something....

[Chris iliff]

Don't think we need a range command. We need clarification on what to do when we run a shooter on stages back to back.

DoubleL is correct. Actually we have that clarification, we just don't follow it for the sake of expediency.

If anything then maybe.....

Something simple. "RO's will issue all appropriate range commands before, during and after each stage when the stages are to be shot back to back by the competitor. There will be no "walking hot" between stages."

Range commands stay unmolested. Safety is ensured. We still get the time savings.

As a shooter I like doing two short stages at once. Seems to go better for me and faster for the squad. Staying HOT isn't what is saving the time in my opinion.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Chris iliff

[Nik Habicht]

I say how about we don't do 2 stages back to back? I don't know about you guys, but something always seems to go awry on one of them. I can understand some justifications but that sort of thing certainly does not belong in an Area championship! Allow equal preparation time for all the stages

Later,

Chuck

O.K. -- but prepare for every stage to be 18-22 rounds so that the bays rotate on schedule......

Fact of big match administration: If you want to throw in a short course or two, doubling them up is usually the only way to make that work smoothly.....

[Nik Habicht]

I say how about we don't do 2 stages back to back? I don't know about you guys, but something always seems to go awry on one of them. I can understand some justifications but that sort of thing certainly does not belong in an Area championship! Allow equal preparation time for all the stages

Later,

Chuck

I agree with your statement as well. Unloading and showing clear, then making ready again has always been my preference. Maybe there should be a rule change in a different part of the rule book that would disallow the ability of "Staying Hot" between stages no matter how close they are. Realistically in the big picture, staying hot really does not save much time because most of the shooters are still going to perform them pre-stage run make ready rituals.

My preference from an MD or RM perspective is to start the first stage loaded, and the second with an unloaded gun -- perhaps on a table? -- start. That alleviates a lot of the problems that could occur on the walk over, or on the stage itself.....

[Sarge]

I say how about we don't do 2 stages back to back? I don't know about you guys, but something always seems to go awry on one of them. I can understand some justifications but that sort of thing certainly does not belong in an Area championship! Allow equal preparation time for all the stages

Later,

Chuck

I agree with your statement as well. Unloading and showing clear, then making ready again has always been my preference. Maybe there should be a rule change in a different part of the rule book that would disallow the ability of "Staying Hot" between stages no matter how close they are. Realistically in the big picture, staying hot really does not save much time because most of the shooters are still going to perform them pre-stage run make ready rituals.

My preference from an MD or RM perspective is to start the first stage loaded, and the second with an unloaded gun

THAT is a great idea.

[ChuckS]

Oh never mind, the thread is about rule changes...

Edited August 11, 2012 by ChuckS

[ima45dv8]

At a recent Area match I attended there was a double stage scenario were the shooter was kept hot between stages and the CRO of that stage deemed it appropriate to bump a few Production or Single Stack shooters into Open because they put a magazine in their front pocket AFTER shooting the first stage. The CRO's stance on this was that since the "Range is Clear" command wasn't given due to being kept hot that the COF was technically still going and the no mag in front pocket rule for Production and Single Stack still applied and thus they were breaking the rules and deserved to be bumped to Open. To me this was a significant failure on the part of the CRO because they knew they were exploiting a hole in the rules that would have a significant negative impact to the shooter. How this specific situation was handled isn't what I want to focus on here.

That CRO was wrong!

His actions demonstrate that he had no business being in command of a stage. But, as he was given that task on faith, it falls as an equal failure of the Range Master for not recognizing the issue, or at least rectifying the issue once he was made aware of the onerous actions of that CRO (I certainly hope someone brought it to his/her attention). The RM should have rectified this problem as soon as he was made aware a moron was in charge of that stage.

The CRO obviously had never been in charge of keeping a match running on schedule (thus the need for two stages shot back-to-back) or he would have had a stronger sensitivity for the balance between what the rulebook requires, and what the match requires from the competitor, purely as a matter of convenience and expediency for the match schedule.

As I stated in my first post. I don't want to turn this thread into "lets pick apart what the CRO did or not do" in my example.

Sorry. I can't stop myself.

Match officials are expected to demonstrate good judgment. It didn't happen. To ignore that omission is an insult not only to the competitor, but the match officials who do bring an adult attitude to the task.

[MoNsTeR]

We don't need new range commands, we need to fix the *&%@#$ pocket rule. Immediately and completely.

In the interest of staying on topic that's all I'll say about it here.

[Tom Mainus]

You do not have to stay hot between stages. If you want to unload your gun then do so. At area 5 2 years ago at Pasa, they had two small stages in one bay, they wanted to keep you hot between stages. We had a shooter shoot the first stage, stay hot, go over to the second stage, Ro says "make ready", shooter proceeds to pull his gun for the sight picture, pull the trigger like he always does for his sight picture, and off goes the gun. Shooters fault, no one argued that. He was DQ"ed. I asked Jay Worden, The CRO on the stage if we had to stay hot between stages, and he said no. After seeing that in person I no longer remain hot between stages, you are just asking for trouble.

Tom

[Flexmoney]

Clean-up on aisle 6!

First, let me address a Moderating issue... Our Forum Rules require that you be polite here, and not antagonistic. So, check your comments on the CRO, etc. - Admin.

=============================

We try to keep these discussions rather generic. That way we can talk about the issues, and not about the people. Our Opening Poster (OP) did a pretty good job with that, but many of us will know exactly who and where. So, if it is the match I believe it is...

- Some have commented on the new rule clarification about mags in pockets for SS and Prod. This new clarification was NOT in place yet at this match. (Therefore the CRO didn't miss on that part.)

- If you agree with the new clarification...so shooters don't get bumped over a "gotcha"...then you owe thanks too this CRO. He was the voice that started the rule change.

- While attending this match, I looked this situation up, down and sideways... The mags in the pockets would have been in the pockets on the next stage...whether the stage was hot or not. If I could have found a loop-hole to keep these shooters from getting bumped to open, they would have had it and we'd probably be taking about that now.

================================

[Flexmoney]

- Having back to back stages in a match: I've designed stages at Level I, II & III matches where this proved to be an asset. Lot of positives. The negatives need to be managed (going from stage to stage, timing, scoring, etc.)

- On saving time going hot: I am going to say that it does NOT save time. That may be counter intuitive, but that has been my experience. I've CRO'd where I have turned squads as fast as always. I've MD'd Level-III's where I have had 3 stages in one bay, and squads rotated on time.

- On "what do I do?": There is confusion from the shooters and from the RO's. All of that can easily go away (see below). When it does, the questions stop and everybody moves along...because they know what to do.

- On "what if?": What if a shooter forgets to bring enough mags for the 2nd stage, or needs to reload them? What if the gun breaks? Etc. All of that can easily go away (see below).

- On "when is one stage over and when does the next one start?": We have lots of rules that are dependent on the answer to that questions. They are specific. All of that can easily go away (see below).

I could go on and on (and likely have, in similar threads). I don't think we have a hole in the rule book here. What we have is a common/historic practice that needs to go away. We need to execute on the rules that already cover this. Simply...clear the shooter and end the first stage. Then, proceed to the start position of the next stage and give the Make Ready command.

If/when we get out of the practice of running hot between these back to back stages, then all of these questions go away. And, the match still runs on time.

[OUshooter]

In a lvl II or higher match this shouldnt happen. If a smaller facility wants to have a high level either that'd great but shoot the stages break for lunch and move things around as needed.

For club matches do your speed shoot and classifer on one bay staying hot between the two. If an RO pulls that junk that was mentioned earlier.....well we wont mind being short one shooter the next month.

Sounds to me like a freshly minted CRO had little man syndrome. While he was technically correct he needs to use some common sense. Which seems to be in short supply these days.

[OUshooter]

I think Flexmoney has it right. Clear between the stages and then load and make ready. Covers the bases and complies with old fashion horse sense.

[Nik Habicht]

I think Flexmoney has it right. Clear between the stages and then load and make ready. Covers the bases and complies with old fashion horse sense.

I totally agree he's right. For the folks who still have concerns, I always suggest making the second stage an unloaded start -- that way it seems quicker.....

...and adds another challenge to the match....

[Sarge]

Well, I am most definitely not in favor of them now! I just got back from the Indiana match and there were three mini stages all tied together that we stayed hot for. I forgot to unlock my holster on the second stage and just about dislocated my hip!

Seriously though, I really don't think they were faster. I had convinced myself to not pull my gun out to make ready for the second or third stage just to eliminate the possibility of touching one off by mistake. They were very simple stages and did not really require much preparation/draw/sight picture/dry fire, etc. So I left it holstered and locked so nothing bad happened during the short walk. And it got me.

A few shooters unloaded and cleared for each stage and not one RO gave anybody "The Look" so they were fine with doing that, as they should be.

And for the record, Race Master holsters have an excellent retention system. Buy with confidence!

[Chris iliff]

Same for me Sarge!! I locked down after the first one and dang near lifted myself off the ground on the popper/ swinger stage.

Flex is dead nuts correct. If we just follow the rules for each stage this goes away. I believe we would still get the time savings.

I will never again walk hot anywhere!! I will be giving and receiving all range commands properly in situations like these moving forward.

Moving from one stage to another "HOT" is outside the scope of our Rulebook (even just a couple feet), may cause confusion for the shooter which can lead lo mistakes, and CIRCUMVENTS all our SAFETY procedures.

As a side note. The guys at Indiana did do a heck of a good job rotating people across those 3 stages!! That was a good crew!!!

[IL-SIG]

I agree with unload and show clear between stages. Very simple - no new rules or stage commands required. As I've been told in the past, it's best to "keep it simple stupid" - it's the KISS method!

[98sr20ve]

We do this all the time in Aurora and it always feels weird to me as a RO and a competitor. I have figured out how I am comfortable RO'ing (load for next string, etc). But personally find this wrong. I think we should finish the first stage and actually say "range is clear" and then walk up to the next stage and start over. Anything else is a bastardization of the rules and leaves things ackward. Only issue with saying "the range is clear" is then people start scoring. Even with out saying that I had someone at the last match start scoring (walking in front of the 180 of the guy with the loaded gun). I had to yell to get his attention and get him back. They are like a pack of wolfs trying to score those targets as fast as possible and it's just not needed. I say finish each stage as a stage and then just make sure the scorers don't come in front of the shooter and keep it safe.

[aztecdriver]

I'm in favor of running two speed shoots in a single bay. I'm in favor of two RO crews running the stages back to back - as long as everyone runs them back to back the same way. I'm beginning to favor NOT going hot to the next stage, for the shooters sake. It happened to me this weekend. Back to back stages, holstered - LOCKED my holster - next stage, in a conscious effort to speed things up I didn't sight picture my loaded gun. Are you ready, stand by - on the way out of the port pulled my pants up to my ears- three times - as I tried to sweep my finger across the lock in a smooth motion. Then I rushed to the end and trainwrecked my plan. Cost me at least 50 match points or more... it was my FAULT that it happened... but, it would not have happened had I not been hot between.

Most competitors take a few seconds to MR when going between stages. Staying hot in between does not help the time, IMHO. I don't think we need to make it a rule, but RM's and CROs should take notice - and make sure to allow unloaded movement. I know I will be doing this in my shooting from now on.

BTW, I think it should be done. Nationals and Area matches can do it right... but we should not allow it to make a difference in shooter's matches.