Dumb Reloading Question #1

[dwpmusic]

Okay. Just getting started in the reloading business and I need to ask more than one stupid question. So, here is stupid question #1. Bought some bullets, primers and powder Saturday in advance of my press, etc. getting here. Got a brand new Speer manual and a brand new Lyman manual. Talking .45ACP here. In looking at the recipe for 230gr TMJ using Winchester 231 powder Speer suggests a starting grain of 5.6 and Lyman suggests a starting grain of of 5.2 supposedly on the same exact Speer bullet (#4480). Trying to do it right and that, to me, is confusing. Also I happened to buy some Nosler 230gr FMJ bullets. I know this question has been asked a million times and all the reloading manuals tell you that substitution of any component (bullet, brass, primer or powder) will change the result you get. But, can I use my Nosler 230gr bullet with the recipe in either manual and why the difference in starting grains with the same exact bullet? How and what can you substitute of any of the four components, obviously with the same bullet weight and type, and be safe? For the first batch of reloads I want to use the Nosler bullets , Winchester primers, Winchester 231 powder and Winchesters brass. And what recipe should I start with? Isn't 5.2 to 5.6 quite a difference? Do I have to buy every reloading manual under the sun and match every single thing that it calls for? Forgive my ignorance. Any and all replies appreciated as usual.

[Steve RA]

You will, or have, find/found that every loading manual differs, some what you might consider a vast amount.

If you are loading target loads - mild - then you can sort of average out what the median load might be from all of them and start there safely. Then if you acquire a chronograph, or know someone who has one, you can work up from there. Generally you can switch primer brands without any problem, especially if you are loading a medium load. You can't do that with powders safely. Also, if you have a friend nearby who is a loader then it really helps to have them help you set up, get started and suggest some safe loads.

Also, ask all the questions here that you can think of, someone will generally know the answer. Although we all have different theories about what is best, if something sounds dangerous we'll all suggest you don't do that.

Good luck and have fun. You won't save any money, but you will be able to shoot more.

[Merlin Orr]

Steve said it...

I would start with the lesser load and go from there. 231 is a great powder for your .45.

[dwpmusic]

Thanks for the advice, guys. Got a lot to learn and hopefully a lot of fun to have.

[judgecrater]

I think you will find that the two differing manuals have specified different Over All Lengths (OAL).

I would guess that the manual showing more powder has a longer OAL? Remember that OAL influences pressure just as does powder amount and bullet weight.

Shorter the OAL the higher the pressure. Each manual is correct.

[dwpmusic]

I'll check that. Thanks.

[noylj]

You ALWAYS start any load development with ANY new bullet or powder by STARTING with lowest STARTING load you can find and working up.

You will NEVER find any loading manual or authority EVER recommending that you AVERAGE starting loads or start about midway up the charges.

Also, any COL referenced in any reloading manual is the SHORTEST COL that the data applies to. Almost all guns perform best with a longer COL than referenced in most manuals.

You will notice in many manuals that all jacketed bullets of a given weight (and sometimes for a small range of bullet weights) all use the same loading data, with the only change being the COL referenced for each bullet.

You start with the lowest starting load. Repeat that mantra a couple of times.

Any other comment is to be disregarded, if safety is important to you.

[Hi-Power Jack]

You start with the lowest starting load.

Right, and then use your chronograph to develop Your load.

[PKT1106]

There are no dumb questions when it comes to your safety.

[Tim/GA]

Also, remember that the powder companies will have loading data online that is the most up to date and can be used to get one more piece of info. Also, might I suggest that you stick to low and midrange loads for a bit as you get your procedures in order and some practice under your belt. Give a margin of error in the unlikely event something is not quite right.

One other suggestion, your scale is your friend! Use it. I can probably speak for most of us here that over time we do not use ours enough.

One other thing, if in doubt listen to yourself. Right now I have 200 40cal rounds waiting to be disassembled. I visually check my 40 rounds after the powder station. I had a hiccup with seating a bullet and then when I got going again I visually checked my powder but had a nagging doubt a few rounds later- did I see a double charge? I told myself no, finished 200 rounds and chamber checked but it still nagged in my mind. Now I just have to find time to pop the bullet on 200 rounds I should have stopped at my first doubt, put those rounds already in the bin away to redo and I would have only been looking at 30 or 40 instead of 200.

[RH45]

I'm pretty sure that when I loaded 231, behind a 230 grain, fmj, I made "major" with 5 grains, OAL of 1.25".

[dwpmusic]

I'm getting the idea, guys. Check, check, check, safety, safety, safety. I'm not getting in to this to blow me, my guns or anyone else up. I'm retired, don't have anything but time so if I make a mistake I can't blame anyone but myself. Thanks for the feedback.

[dwpmusic]

By the way, can some of you suggest a good chronograph?

[orangeman711]

I've used a ProChrono by KC Competition Electronics Inc. for a number of years with no problems. I went to Wally World and picked up a camera tripod to mount it on, works great. Good luck.

[Poppa Bear]

I was wandering through a local thrift store and found a pro grade engineering tripod with a few nicks and scratches for $15 a year ago. I use the ProChrono Digital Chronograph with IR screens.

[dwpmusic]

Thanks. I'll be checking into that.

[CKing866]

I'm watching this thread because I've just started reloading myself and I've gotten a lot of good information from the responses to dwpmusic's questions. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but here's a question of my own: What are generally safe tolerances on COL? For example, if load data calls for 1.190" COL, what are the consequences for rounds measuring a few thousandth's over or under? Also, in my example, the load data is for a .45 ACP/200grain LSWC/Accurate NO.2 powder, but I want to start loading for .40 cal. Do the tolerances vary depending on what you're loading?

Edited July 25, 2012 by CKing866

[dwpmusic]

You're not hijacking anything. I need to learn probably more than you do. Keep the questions coming.

[shooting for M]

WOW, 5.2 of 231 is the starting load!? Please check your data, it looks like 4.2 is starting load according to Hodgdon website. I know its a different bullet but still a 230. I guess I am late to the party, but wanted to throw that out there.

5.1 under a 230 bear creek made over 180 PF at L-10 nationals a few years ago.

[dwpmusic]

WOW, 5.2 of 231 is the starting load!? Please check your data, it looks like 4.2 is starting load according to Hodgdon website. I know its a different bullet but still a 230. I guess I am late to the party, but wanted to throw that out there.

5.1 under a 230 bear creek made over 180 PF at L-10 nationals a few years ago.

Wow! ! I'm looking on the Hodgdon website right now and for a 230gr LRN bullett it's saying 4.3 for a starting load and 5.3gr for a maximum for Win231. Got some real confusion going on here. Page 973 of the new Speer #14 manual has 5.6 for a starting load and 6.2 for a maximum on a 230gr TMJ RN bullett. Page 382 of the new Lyman 49th edition gives 5.2gr for a starting load with 5.8 for a maximum on a 230gr TMJ. Also the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook Third Edition gives the same identical data on Page 191. What am I reading wrong? All of this is for Winchester 231 although some of the data just says "231". This is going to be my very first starting load. I don't want to screw up. It seems to me that there would be a vast difference between 4.3gr and 5.2gr for a starting charge. Somebody, anybody, step in here and give some clarification and guidance on this, please. You simply can't find more of a novice than I am at the moment. Help! !

[Steve RA]

Chronograph wise, you might as well start with the best. Get an Oehler 35P and never look back !!!

[noylj]

Hi-Power Jack: The only reason for a chronograph is for Power Factor or calculating bullet drop at various ranges. Nobody NEEDS a chrono for developing loads, just for developing loads and knowing the average velocity (if sample size is large enough). I have spent over 40 years developing loads and only used a chrono once (when I was purposely loading to max pressure and wanted to KNOW the velocity). A chrono is fun, but far from needed.

For COL concerns, try measuring a bunch of bullets out of the box. How consistent is the bullet's overall length? You will find some variation.

Next, how do you plan to achieve perfection? You would need to seat each bullet in very small increments if you really wanted to attempt to maintain the COL to less than 0.001". The only way I have found to get a small decrease in COL variation is by using a die without a crimp section and turning the die body down about 1/2 turn from touching the shell holder (this is for strong single-stage presses) so the press "cams over" during seating.

A couple thousandths makes no difference.

[Amerflyer48]

LRN = Lead Round Nose TMJ= Total Metal Jacket ( copper ) Lead and Jacketed/plated data will be different,due to friction differences between lead/steel and copper/steel

thus lead data is usually,....USUALLY less powder than copper jacketed.

COL usually shorter causes higher pressure/velocity because the combustion chamber is smaller for a given powder charge..keep in mind if a projectile has a different oal then when loaded into the case at the same OAL the longer bullet will be seated deeper.

as far as how consistent the components need to be, not as fine as one would think,once you have your recipe/charge then using the same box of bullets,same powder charge and same lot of primers you are plenty close enough for our game,..no need to case trim or trickle powder or even weigh each bullet like a benchrest shooter would..

Even for my Bullseye gun a S&W M-52 the only thing I add is to trim up the cases for the first loading then it outshoots me every time I pick it up...and I admit it is a psycological thing with that pistol untrimmed work just as well..

John

Edited July 26, 2012 by Amerflyer48

[dwpmusic]

Thanks for the useful information.

[Tim/GA]

WOW, 5.2 of 231 is the starting load!? Please check your data, it looks like 4.2 is starting load according to Hodgdon website. I know its a different bullet but still a 230. I guess I am late to the party, but wanted to throw that out there.

5.1 under a 230 bear creek made over 180 PF at L-10 nationals a few years ago.

Wow! ! I'm looking on the Hodgdon website right now and for a 230gr LRN bullett it's saying 4.3 for a starting load and 5.3gr for a maximum for Win231. Got some real confusion going on here. Page 973 of the new Speer #14 manual has 5.6 for a starting load and 6.2 for a maximum on a 230gr TMJ RN bullett. Page 382 of the new Lyman 49th edition gives 5.2gr for a starting load with 5.8 for a maximum on a 230gr TMJ. Also the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook Third Edition gives the same identical data on Page 191. What am I reading wrong? All of this is for Winchester 231 although some of the data just says "231". This is going to be my very first starting load. I don't want to screw up. It seems to me that there would be a vast difference between 4.3gr and 5.2gr for a starting charge. Somebody, anybody, step in here and give some clarification and guidance on this, please. You simply can't find more of a novice than I am at the moment. Help! !

Yeah, I am surprised at the difference in those manuals. From the powder manuf. site even a 230 grn Hornady FMJ is a starting load of 4.2grn of Win 231. Personally, I look at reloading manuals like you listed as being good for procedures, etc., but when it comes to the load data I like to use the powder manufacturer's latest info. You can get some of it in the free load data brochures you see for free at a lot of shops that sell powder- but usually their online loads are more comprehensive. Start with the lowest one you see and work up from there.

Occasionally you will get load data where only the max load is listed, even from the powder manuf. In that case the rule of thumb I was taught was to start your load work 10% below the max load listed. Rare now though since they can easily put a lot of data online cheaply.