My DQ

[MattYvip]

Ok ladies and gents here's the question.... I recently shot a three gun match with a new shot gun I picked up. The rules stated that the weapon had to be completely empty and on safe in order to proceed down range with your rifle or pistol to continue the course of fire.

I have a versamax and didn't know that you can't manually eject rounds that are in the tube without hitting the round catch release (my fault for not knowing my equiptment inside and out). Ok so here's what happened, I finished the shotgun portion of the course and racked out two rounds (one in the chamber and one on the lifter) and kept racking because the bolt wouldn't lock back...

When no other rounds ejected after several extra cycles of the bolt the RO said "you're good, Go."

I finished the course of fire and came back to secure the shotgun and saw that there was still a round in the mag-tube. The RO DQ'd me. I didn't argue as it was my fault for not verifying my weapon was empty.

My question is had it been a big match, could I have argued that the RO coached me (by telling me I was good and to go) which led to a DQ because I was still working on my shotgun trying to figure out why the bolt wouldn't lock back?

Like I said, I accepted the DQ without argument and I'm not trying to argue my case here. It's just a question posed to those who know a lot more than I do.

Thanks in advance.

[abn-rgr]

I would think you have a pretty good argument. RO shouldnt have coached you or told you to do anything. I know he was just trying to be helpful, but it cost you. As a RM or MD, I would have let you reshoot. That is RO interference in my opinion.

[rangerguy]

I agree, you got screwed. It is ultimately up to you to verify the gun is empty but It was wrong of him to tell you "you are good".

Edited July 23, 2012 by rangerguy

[twodownzero]

I would think you have a pretty good argument. RO shouldnt have coached you or told you to do anything. I know he was just trying to be helpful, but it cost you. As a RM or MD, I would have let you reshoot. That is RO interference in my opinion.

MD has no power over the range or the match once the shooting begins.

I would have DQed you. I would have felt bad about it, but if the rule is that your gun has to be empty before going forward, and you did that, then I'm not sure there's much room to work with there. You cannot expect the RO to know how to operate every type of shotgun. He was mistaken to give you bad advice, but ultimately, the safety of a competitor's equipment is their responsibility alone.

ROs are there to assist you getting through the course of fire safely, if they can. But it is not their role to know how to operate your firearm or to make it safe. That rests on you.

The solution to this might just be modifying the rules. If a gun's chamber is empty and it is on safe, I don't see why that gun can't be dumped into a dump barrel and the stage continue.

This is partially why multi-gun is hard, because of course safety is important, but stages should test shooting skill, not your ability to unload your gun as quickly as possible.

Edited July 23, 2012 by twodownzero

[Airedale]

You left a loaded shotgun,apparently not on safe, and proceeded down range in violation of the match rules(according to the original post).

It seems you did not "eyeball" the mag tube to see the ammo or put the weapon on safe.

DQ. It is your responsibility to ground it in the prescribed manner.

Dave

[EkuJustice]

I usually plan on ending the stage with 1 maby 2 rounds in the gun max. At the end of he stage double tap the last steel and dump it when it runs dry.

[MattYvip]

You left a loaded shotgun,apparently not on safe, and proceeded down range in violation of the match rules(according to the original post).

It seems you did not "eyeball" the mag tube to see the ammo or put the weapon on safe.

DQ. It is your responsibility to ground it in the prescribed manner.

Dave

I did put the saftey catch in the "on" position. So technically the gun was on safe; however, you're right, I did not check the mag tube. I was still looking at it when he told me I was good and to go but I do agree that its my responsibility to make sure the weapon is clear as prescribed. Like I said I wasn't arguing his call, and it's a local match and the guy is a good dude. I was just curious as to what would have happened if I'd paid $300 bucks and gotten DQed because an RO gave bad advice thats all.

[Flexmoney]

The answer to most all of the threads like this is that is might have been their fault, but it is your responsibility.

[springy]

It's interesting that the 3gun crowd doesn't want a bunch of rules until something goes haywire.

This is/was a local monthly type match? The RO said it was good to go, and then wants to DQ you for doing what the RO told you to do? First things first, fire the RO. Second, it's a monthly match, that's where we learn stuff. Thirdly I'm hoping the gun was abandoned with the barrel towards the ground? Fourthly, you had the safety applied, (((( I did put the saftey catch in the "on" position,)))) I'm pretty sure that all big matches (and local matches that have shooters that participate in big matches) require the gun be totally empty OR ON SAFE.

be happy, you learned a bunch

Edited July 23, 2012 by springy

[twodownzero]

The RO said it was good to go, and then wants to DQ you for doing what the RO told you to do?

The RO doesn't "want" to DQ anyone. Competitors DQ themselves.

Fire the RO? We're all volunteers. I'm not sure how you'll have a match if you blame the RO for competitor (in)action.

[MattYvip]

The RO said it was good to go, and then wants to DQ you for doing what the RO told you to do?

The RO doesn't "want" to DQ anyone. Competitors DQ themselves.

Fire the RO? We're all volunteers. I'm not sure how you'll have a match if you blame the RO for competitor (in)action.

I agree with what you've said. Just to be clear, the RO didn't want to DQ me and felt bad that he did. I DO NOT blame the RO for what happened and I have not attempted to pass off responsibility for me not knowing/realizing there was still a round in the tube. However, I was curious to see what the official ruling would be when the RO told me "You're good, GO" when i was still working on clearing the gun.

As previously stated by springy a local match is where we learn... so I'm not mad about getting DQed, I don't fault anyone but me nor do I want to "fire" the RO. I was just curious.

[MattYvip]

The answer to most all of the threads like this is that is might have been their fault, but it is your responsibility.

I totally agree, Like I said I was just curious to see if had this happened at a big/major match if I'd have a leg to stand on to keep shooting. I dont' know what USPSA rules are on RO interference during 3 gun matches.

[Benelli Chick]

Always call the match director or range master, whichever is appropriate!

At a recent match, someone had an AD into the grass. It was obviously an AD, so the RO stopped him.

He asked if the shooter wanted to call the match director. He said "no."

The RO said he wanted to call him anyway just to be sure.

Sure enough, the AD was down range and far anough away from the shooter, for those rules, he was okay!

So, always call. The RO's job is safety and he/she should stop you if he feels anything is unsafe. That's what he's supposed to do.

Sometimes, it's on the edge, but stopping the shooter remedies anything unsafe by stopping the shooting, and then things can be figured out later.

Safety first! Stop the shooting and then call!

In your case, depending on whose rules, on safe would've been enough!

My two cents!

Denise

Edited July 23, 2012 by Benelli Chick

[ClutchUSMC]

Disclaimer: I only run a club match thought and I know the stakes are higher at a bigger match.

If you had done it at my club I would have scored the stage as shot and let you continue on. I would not have offered you a reshoot but would not have penalized you either. It's my feeling that penalizing a newer or less experienced shooter for following the direction of the RO is silly.

At a larger match I would make a case for it being RO interference had it happend to be but, I think that the onus is on the shooter. Maybe the RM would have felt bad for you and let you have a reshoot maybe not. I think either would be acceptable.

At the end of the day the RO should have never said anything to you.

[Lead-Head]

Maybe the RO should not have said "you're good".

At a major match you probably would have been given a reshoot. Who knows.

But if you admittendly did not know how your shotgun worked before the match, I would just call it a wash. Which sounds like what happend this time around. Good lesson for you and the RO.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Lead-Head

[Alaskapopo]

This situation is why I prefer the rules like Ozarks (I believe) where its a stage DQ for putting a loaded gun in a barrel off safe not a match DQ. But I feel the OP got screwed.

Pat

[Stlhead]

The OP got screwed, not by the RO, but by himself. It does not matter what the RO says, unless it is STOP. The RO could have been commenting on the competitors outfit for all we know. While it is unfortunate, we play a big boy sport, and the shooter is entirely responsible for his weapons, their condition, function, and everything they do while on the stage, whether under his control or in a barrel (as long as no one else messes with them). The RO was trying his best to help the shooter, hanging the good Samaritan seems like a bad example, and not a good way to foster more volunteerism. If the rules say empty, then make it empty. If you do not like the rules then don't play, or convince the match director to change them. Sorry about the DQ, but it happens, and I am glad that no one was injured.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Yet another great example of why we ROs should simply STFU unless giving the "Make Ready" or "Show Clear" commands. It's impossible for an RO to "coach" the same for everyone, so it should be done for no one.

[StealthyBlagga]

Yet another great example of why we ROs should simply STFU unless giving the "Make Ready" or "Show Clear" commands. It's impossible for an RO to "coach" the same for everyone, so it should be done for no one.

+1. Also a compelling reason for all those matches that use the "gun must be totally empty" abandonment rule to re-evaluate their position. If the abandonment location is properly designed (i.e. barrel with muzzle down into the dirt) then it is perfectly safe to abandon a loaded gun with safety applied, even if the shooter is going down range.

Edited July 24, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[Jesse Tischauser]

I just did something similar to a shooter at a match. He asked me if all the targets were down and I said yes only to find out that they weren't. I had to reshoot him.

This is a little more serious because of an unsafe gun being involved. I would vote you get a reshoot.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The answer to most all of the threads like this is that is might have been their fault, but it is your responsibility.

This is very true as well. However under the pressure of the timer brains scramble and the RO becomes the person in charge of safety. When the person in charge says stop or go we listen sometimes even when we know better.

[Alaskapopo]

The answer to most all of the threads like this is that is might have been their fault, but it is your responsibility.

This is very true as well. However under the pressure of the timer brains scramble and the RO becomes the person in charge of safety. When the person in charge says stop or go we listen sometimes even when we know better.

I agree we have to becareful of becoming to rigid and losing the spirt of the rules. If it were at my match I would not have DQ'd the shooter if the RO told him that. But to each his own. It was not my match.

Pat

[Outsydlooknin75]

The answer to most all of the threads like this is that is might have been their fault, but it is your responsibility.

This is very true as well. However under the pressure of the timer brains scramble and the RO becomes the person in charge of safety. When the person in charge says stop or go we listen sometimes even when we know better.

I agree we have to becareful of becoming to rigid and losing the spirt of the rules. If it were at my match I would not have DQ'd the shooter if the RO told him that. But to each his own. It was not my match.

Pat

How can you make a rule then not enforce it?

If the rules state it must be empty then it must be empty.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

[DrawandDuck]

The RO said it was good to go, and then wants to DQ you for doing what the RO told you to do?

The RO doesn't "want" to DQ anyone. Competitors DQ themselves.

Fire the RO? We're all volunteers. I'm not sure how you'll have a match if you blame the RO for competitor (in)action.

Yea, stand there and argue with the RO that you are not good to go....I think the point being the RO told him the gun was clear.....Lets say you are shooting at a long range piece of steel and the RO calls a hit but you are pretty sure you didn't hit it but move on to the next target..you finish the stage and then he comes up and tells you he made a mistake and that you didn't hit it and gives you a mike, what would you say to that...pretty much the same thing.

[MattYvip]

Like I said previously I'm not trying to say the RO did a bad job, I accept total responsibility for not clearing the gun. Just seeing how it would be ruled upon at a major match.

I've been shooting uspsa for a long time now but am new to three gun so I didn't know if the RO interference rule applied. I only ask because I plan on shooting a lot more three gun this year and next.

The RO is a good guy and I don't hold him responsible. Would I have DQ'd me, I dont know, I'm bias so I can't say honestly...

It was a club match, and I learned something new about my shotgun. The RO was just trying to help (even though it didn't end up that way) but it was my job to clear the gun as per the course rule.