What constitutes unsafe ammunition?

[Sarge]

5.5.5 Any ammunition deemed unsafe by a Range Officer must be immediately withdrawn from the match

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load)

Both of the pertinent rules seem to imply if a shooter has just one squib he can be required to withdraw the ammo from use.

Had a shooter recently who had a squib on each of his first two stages. I'd say that meets the criteria.

To you range officials, what constitutes unsafe ammo in your eyes?

[Nik Habicht]

Short answer -- RO discretion. I tend to ask a bunch of pointed questions as the RO, especially if I don't know the shooter. Is the competitor new to reloading? Does he/she have access to a different ammo supply? Are they comfortable risking the gun to additional rounds.....

Usually the shooter is able to reach a decision on their own.....

My standard is usually that squibs sometimes happen -- so it might take the second occurrence of a squib from the same ammo supply for me to declare that supply of ammo unsafe....

[Skydiver]

When I first got into this game in 2007, some people were telling me that shooting a 9mm that makes major PF is considered unsafe ammunition if shot out of a Production or Limited gun. When I got around to taking the RO class, there was never any mention of this being considered unsafe. To me, I don't consider 9mm Major as unsafe, but others do.

[GEN-4-35]

At a local level one match a competitor is having major ammo/gun problems...failure to eject failure to go into battery throught the fitst four or five stages competitor finally DQ's for sweeping himself while clearing a jam. Should his ammo been ruled "unsafe" before it went that far.

[GrumpyOne]

At a local level one match a competitor is having major ammo/gun problems...failure to eject failure to go into battery throught the fitst four or five stages competitor finally DQ's for sweeping himself while clearing a jam. Should his ammo been ruled "unsafe" before it went that far.

No, the ammo should have been left (not withdrawn). Just because it won't eject or feed does not make it unsafe. It could have been the gun, magazines, etc.

[GrumpyOne]

I say 2 squibs and the ammo should be withdrawn. The match is usually already toast by that point anyway. A single squib might be a fluke..... Two squibs and a pattern is developing.... A dangerous pattern.

[glefos]

I say 2 squibs and the ammo should be withdrawn. The match is usually already toast by that point anyway. A single squib might be a fluke..... Two squibs and a pattern is developing.... A dangerous pattern.

That sounds reasonable to me. As a shooter, the RO wouldn't have to say anything after a second squib. I'd withdraw myself.

[Sarge]

I say 2 squibs and the ammo should be withdrawn. The match is usually already toast by that point anyway. A single squib might be a fluke..... Two squibs and a pattern is developing.... A dangerous pattern.

That sounds reasonable to me. As a shooter, the RO wouldn't have to say anything after a second squib. I'd withdraw myself.

Remember, you don't have to withdraw from the match. You can substitute the ammo. But then again who wants to borrow reloaded ammo from somebody else? Especially somebody you don't know. But nonetheless you can do it.

[twodownzero]

The rule I was taught is two squibs, but I'm not sure there's any authority for that.

Remember, you don't have to withdraw from the match. You can substitute the ammo. But then again who wants to borrow reloaded ammo from somebody else? Especially somebody you don't know. But nonetheless you can do it.

I think much of the reluctance to trust other's reloads is unnecessary. I would generally think that anyone who shoots a lot of USPSA would be able to make ammunition that was good enough for me to use. I would use it if offered.

I would not use ammo from some random reloader at the gun show, on the other hand.

[juan]

The rule I was taught is two squibs, but I'm not sure there's any authority for that.

Remember, you don't have to withdraw from the match. You can substitute the ammo. But then again who wants to borrow reloaded ammo from somebody else? Especially somebody you don't know. But nonetheless you can do it.

I think much of the reluctance to trust other's reloads is unnecessary. I would generally think that anyone who shoots a lot of USPSA would be able to make ammunition that was good enough for me to use. I would use it if offered.

I would not use ammo from some random reloader at the gun show, on the other hand.

plus 1

some of these guys taught me how to reload.

I see them every week, I know who to ask and who not to.

[Poppa Bear]

The rule I was taught is two squibs, but I'm not sure there's any authority for that.

Remember, you don't have to withdraw from the match. You can substitute the ammo. But then again who wants to borrow reloaded ammo from somebody else? Especially somebody you don't know. But nonetheless you can do it.

I think much of the reluctance to trust other's reloads is unnecessary. I would generally think that anyone who shoots a lot of USPSA would be able to make ammunition that was good enough for me to use. I would use it if offered.

I would not use ammo from some random reloader at the gun show, on the other hand.

+1 Me and my buddy both shoot identical loads. I do not remember him having a squib in the last 4 years so I would have no problem using some of his ammo.

As to the unsafe ammo? A judgement call I have made a couple of times, and the shooter did not disagree. Squibs are a pain to take care of, mixed with some possible double charges? VERY bad combination. (A new machine and still working out the bugs)

[All-Gator]

Just a historicl perspective FYI...this rule came into effect at a time when 38 caliber ammo was being developed. One would encounter very light bullets (eg, down to 105gr...even 95gr) at hyper speeds (eg, up to 1700 fps)in unsupported chambers in a variety of cases (eg, 9x25, 9x21, 38Super, etc.). Remember the Power Factor was 175. Severe cratering of steel, extreme splatter, and "super face" (ie, brass bits in the face from rupturing cases)were often the result. Ranges began to protect their equipment..and shooters...by imposing limits of velocity, etc., and declared such ammo as "unsafe." (And it was!)

[bbbean]

At a local level one match a competitor is having major ammo/gun problems...failure to eject failure to go into battery throught the fitst four or five stages competitor finally DQ's for sweeping himself while clearing a jam. Should his ammo been ruled "unsafe" before it went that far.

No, the ammo should have been left (not withdrawn). Just because it won't eject or feed does not make it unsafe. It could have been the gun, magazines, etc.

+1! Poor gun handling skills are unsafe. Bringing an untested ammo/magazine/gun combination to a match is competitively unwise. We don't DQ for competitively unwise.

[bikerburgess]

We don't DQ for competitively unwise.

Thank goodness or I would never finish a match

Mike

[GrumpyOne]

We don't DQ for competitively unwise.

Thank goodness or I would never finish a match

Mike

You and me both, brother!

[Sin-ster]

If two shooters are sharing the same ammo, but only one of them experiences two squibs... Are they both required to pull said ammo from the match?

If they borrow ammo from a third shooter, and have two squibs between the two of them... is this different batch unsafe as well?

Tom foolery aside-- I agree that 2 squibs is a pattern, especially in terms of the relatively short local matches we're talking about. In fact, as I recall, this was the example given in my RO class-- 1 as a fluke, 2 as a pattern, 3 as the RO/RM's fault...

I also agree that RO discretion will be necessary in some cases, based on the circumstances. Perhaps not so much in regards to squibs, but in regards to ammo that's piercing primers and bulging cases, and then experiences case head separation or some other (relatively) catastrophic failure. At what point in time is that ammo declared unsafe? That one's on the RO...

[Tim/GA]

This past weekend I had 2 times when the round did not fully seat in the chamber and locked up the slide. The 2nd time it was particularly hard to clear the gun. (I had not chamber checked as it was a local match and even with the Barsto barrel in my Limited Glock I had not had problems in the past with cases just resized in the Dillong. I usually shoot a 35 with a stock barrel in production and when shooting a 3gun or steel match the the limited gun had used roll sized cases) I pulled myself after the 2nd one since it was a hold up for the squad and had happened 2 times. I am the MD/RM for that match, not sure that I would have forced someone to withdraw that ammo but felt it was right for me.

On the other hand, about a year ago I had some issues with my Dillon SDB loading a batch of ammo before going out of town and attending a local match while there. I let 2 bad rounds get through with the problems and had squib early in the match. Knocked it out of the barrel and 0ed the stage. ON the last stage I had a squib 1 target from the end. Would have expected to be asked to withdraw the ammo had it not been my last stage- would have done it without being asked anyway. Ended up just those 2 in that batch of ammo but taught me to dump and restart when problems with the press come up.

Don't think there is any hard and fast rule in the book though.

[Nik Habicht]

If two shooters are sharing the same ammo, but only one of them experiences two squibs... Are they both required to pull said ammo from the match?

If they borrow ammo from a third shooter, and have two squibs between the two of them... is this different batch unsafe as well?

I'd unfortunately say yes and yes.....

I'm also the guy who once loaded 7 200 round batches of ammo (loaded on different days, on two different presses) to take to the 2004 Handgun Nationals -- a 5 day 24 stage match with all divisions going head to head. I wanted to make sure that even if I had a bad batch, I'd have enough batches in reserve to get me through the match. I started each day with a fresh batch of bullets, and never needed to dip into the 6th and 7th batches....

[Steven Cline]

5.5.5 Any ammunition deemed unsafe by a Range Officer must be immediately withdrawn from the match

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load)

Both of the pertinent rules seem to imply if a shooter has just one squib he can be required to withdraw the ammo from use.

Had a shooter recently who had a squib on each of his first two stages. I'd say that meets the criteria.

To you range officials, what constitutes unsafe ammo in your eyes?

It's like porn- hard to define, but you know it when you see it. This sport requires everyone to be big boys and girls. If you refuse to be an adult about your two squibs in as many stages, then expect to get treated like a child.

[Sin-ster]

I'd unfortunately say yes and yes.....

I'm also the guy who once loaded 7 200 round batches of ammo (loaded on different days, on two different presses) to take to the 2004 Handgun Nationals -- a 5 day 24 stage match with all divisions going head to head. I wanted to make sure that even if I had a bad batch, I'd have enough batches in reserve to get me through the match. I started each day with a fresh batch of bullets, and never needed to dip into the 6th and 7th batches....

My ruling as well, provided of course that we knew with certainty that the ammo batches were the same. Good RO decisions!

That's some serious preparation and planning, my friend-- and I like that!

[mactiger]

Two squibs and that ammo is withdrawn.

[mactiger]

Two squibs and that ammo is withdrawn.

[kamikaze1a]

How about a shooter who grabbed the wrong mags, 9mm out of their 40. The rounds went bang, did not cycle and the poppers just went ding. Racked the slide and again, bang and ding.

It wasn't technically unsafe ammo or gun but perhaps unsafe gun handling? Lose the score for that stage only or DQ?

[GrumpyOne]

How about a shooter who grabbed the wrong mags, 9mm out of their 40. The rounds went bang, did not cycle and the poppers just went ding. Racked the slide and again, bang and ding.

It wasn't technically unsafe ammo or gun but perhaps unsafe gun handling? Lose the score for that stage only or DQ?

Neither, score the stage as shot. The shooter did not handle his gun "unsafely", and there is no rule saying that (no offense meant!) you can't be stupid during a course of fire. No different than starting a COF with a 9mm, but sporting 40 ammo in your mags.

[Sarge]

there is no rule saying that (no offense meant!) you can't be stupid during a course of fire.

Thank God!!!