Speed vs accuracy

[Lager]

I must start out with this statement.

Im not new to competitive pistol shooting, but I am new to USPSA.

Ive a few USPSA matches under my belt and am currently in the Unclassified group. I compete in the SS class and in the past, I shot quickly/or normal and found my scores in the range of the "B" class competitors.

I had mostly A/C hits and would slow myself a bit to get the steel the first time.

This last match, I decided to concentrate on double A's with every target.

I took my time on every target, on every stage. Would even take another shot at a target when I thought I didnt hit the A zone.

This means more mag changes, especially when your shooting single stack.

By the 4th stage of 6, my squad was congrats me for the highest score. Double A every time, every steel first shot.

End result?

I shot "C" class and the lower end of that.

So,If anyone outthere is considering slowing down to get the higher point score and take the time hit?

I can tell you, it just isnt worth it.

Accept the A/C hits and increase your speed.

I learned my lesson.

Its speed and accuracy. Just more focused on speed then accuracy.

I can live with that.

[MikeOKC]

I disagree.

[juan]

I see bolth points

but if all you do is shoot accurate and dont practice shooting fast your missing half the game.

me and my son will set a array of tgts up, run it a few times to get a base line time.

then set the par timer up and start dropping the par times down, when we miss the a zone we hold the par timer there till we breake it.

you will be surprised how much time you can take off when you pushing.

[theycallmeingot]

Its speed and accuracy.

period... there is no sacrificing one for the other. you should be working on shooting alphas as quick as you can sling shots randomly. it is a perfect balance, imo.

[alpha-charlie]

I disagree also. your speed will only take you so far with mostly alphas and charlies. The person who is going to beat you will have the same time as you but with more points.

[a matt]

If you are taking that much time to make sure you are getting all A's you are going to slow. Shoot mostly A's 90 to 95% . IMHO. It's a balance.

[Flexmoney]

I must start out with this statement.

Im not new to competitive pistol shooting, but I am new to USPSA.

Ive a few USPSA matches under my belt and am currently in the Unclassified group. I compete in the SS class and in the past, I shot quickly/or normal and found my scores in the range of the "B" class competitors.

I had mostly A/C hits and would slow myself a bit to get the steel the first time.

This last match, I decided to concentrate on double A's with every target.

I took my time on every target, on every stage. Would even take another shot at a target when I thought I didnt hit the A zone.

This means more mag changes, especially when your shooting single stack.

By the 4th stage of 6, my squad was congrats me for the highest score. Double A every time, every steel first shot.

End result?

I shot "C" class and the lower end of that.

So,If anyone outthere is considering slowing down to get the higher point score and take the time hit?

I can tell you, it just isnt worth it.

Accept the A/C hits and increase your speed.

I learned my lesson.

Its speed and accuracy. Just more focused on speed then accuracy.

I can live with that.

You made a conscience decision to go slow. Going slow hurts your score.

I don't believe in balance. I don't believe in getting X percentage of the points means you are going too fast or too slow.

What I do believe is that one should see enough to make the shot. No more. No less. Over seeing can be as bad as under seeing.

[motosapiens]

Would even take another shot at a target when I thought I didnt hit the A zone.

I found the problem.

I'm no better a shooter than you, so take my advice for what it's worth, but from a math standpoint, it makes sense to me to make up misses, and maybe even deltas, but not charlies. the length of time it takes to make an extra shot more than cancels out the extra points.

You don't mention what division you're shooting. If major, there is even less reason to make up charlies. If minor it's probably worth slowing down enough to get mostly alphas, but I wouldn't stress over a reasonable percentage of non-alpha hits.

[Mitch Harrington]

My goal at every match is to shoot 90% of the available points.

[HoMiE]

Would even take another shot at a target when I thought I didnt hit the A zone.

I found the problem.

I'm no better a shooter than you, so take my advice for what it's worth, but from a math standpoint, it makes sense to me to make up misses, and maybe even deltas, but not charlies. the length of time it takes to make an extra shot more than cancels out the extra points.

You don't mention what division you're shooting. If major, there is even less reason to make up charlies. If minor it's probably worth slowing down enough to get mostly alphas, but I wouldn't stress over a reasonable percentage of non-alpha hits.

Don't think, thinking gets you in trouble. See your sights lift from the A zone so you know you hit the A. It's that simple.

[lugnut]

Would even take another shot at a target when I thought I didnt hit the A zone.

I found the problem.

I'm no better a shooter than you, so take my advice for what it's worth, but from a math standpoint, it makes sense to me to make up misses, and maybe even deltas, but not charlies. the length of time it takes to make an extra shot more than cancels out the extra points.

You don't mention what division you're shooting. If major, there is even less reason to make up charlies. If minor it's probably worth slowing down enough to get mostly alphas, but I wouldn't stress over a reasonable percentage of non-alpha hits.

Don't think, thinking gets you in trouble. See your sights lift from the A zone so you know you hit the A. It's that simple.

Sounds simple but if that were the case we'd all get As 100% of the time. Reality is even great shooters make mistakes in calling shots. Sometimes they knew they had a bad shot but most of the time they are surprised to see Mikes. Maybe the the GMs are better at REAL shot calling but I've talked to many Masters that can't shot call perfectly.. and even when they realize they called a C often times they won't bother making it up (for example if they are shooting on the move they won't back up to make up a C).

We're all working on one thing- holding the sight picture while pulling the trigger (in most cases we do this in a very small time frame). If we don't have a stable sight picture at that instant or we move the gun while pulling the trigger- chances are good you can miss the A. Calling the A or not is not black or white from what I've seen. Maybe there are M and GMs that can shoot at extreme speed and call all their shots... but I'm pretty sure many don't call the shot 100% in a particular zone on the target... maybe I'm naive but I've watched and talked with plenty of Masters about this.

It's certainly everyone's goal to improve this skill no doubt in the world about that. I am pleased when I truly can call a bad shot (or a good one). Sometimes I'm more pleased when I can call a Delta as compared to thinking I had a bad shot and got an A!

[CHA-LEE]

Lager> You need to look at this "Issue" from a different perspective. When you shoot "Fast" but get crappy hits, troubleshoot the issue and figure out WHY you are getting crappy hits when shooting at a fast aggressive speed. There are many different causes as to why peoples hit quality goes into the ditch when they try to shoot fast. You need to break down what you are doing and fix the issues so you can continue to shoot aggressively/quickly AND get all of the points. I have listed below some common causes to poor hit quality when you "Try" to shoot fast....

Double Tapping - Seeing the sights once then whacking the trigger twice hoping that your second hit will be there.

Mashing the Trigger - Using 10lbs of trigger pull force to break the shot on a 2lb trigger.

Flinching - Anticipating the shot and punching the gun down/forward before or when the shot breaks.

Looking at targets while shooting - If you are looking at the targets while shooting instead of your sights there is no way that you will "Know" the quality of your hits as the shot breaks.

Moving your head while shooting - A lot of people tend to move their head to the next target or shooting position as they break the last shot on target. Any head movement while shooting will deviate the gun position and pull it off your aiming point.

Shooting at Brown - You need to pick a specific place on the target where you want to aim at. If you settle for shooting as soon as you see your sights on "Brown" there is no telling where your hits will be. Aim Small, Miss Small. But don't get tricked into thinking that aiming at a specific spot on the target will take more time than not aiming.

Blinking While Shooting - If you blink when the shot breaks there is no way that you can call the shot because you can't see. You need to keep your eye(s) open when the shot breaks so you can call the shot.

Not Calling Shots - You must call each shot. This is really the only way that you can consistently shoot quickly and accurately. When you call your shots you can mentally work towards shooting the next shot or engaging the next target as soon as the existing shot breaks and is called good. This instant feedback of KNOWING that the shot is good allows you to quickly work towards making the next shot.

Edited May 23, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[lugnut]

Damn- that is a great post Cha-Lee! FWIW I'm a trigger masher.... when I mash.... shots go low. Need to work on this- any tips/tricks to reduce this mashing?

Lager> You need to look at this "Issue" from a different perspective. When you shoot "Fast" but get crappy hits, troubleshoot the issue and figure out WHY you are getting crappy hits when shooting at a fast aggressive speed. There are many different causes as to why peoples hit quality goes into the ditch when they try to shoot fast. You need to break down what you are doing and fix the issues so you can continue to shoot aggressively/quickly AND get all of the points. I have listed below some common causes to poor hit quality when you "Try" to shoot fast....

Double Tapping - Seeing the sights once then whacking the trigger twice hoping that your second hit will be there.

Mashing the Trigger - Using 10lbs of trigger pull force to break the shot on a 2lb trigger.

Flinching - Anticipating the shot and punching the gun down/forward before or when the shot breaks.

Looking at targets while shooting - If you are looking at the targets while shooting instead of your sights there is no way that you will "Know" the quality of your hits as the shot breaks.

Moving your head while shooting - A lot of people tend to move their head to the next target or shooting position as they break the last shot on target. Any head movement while shooting will deviate the gun position and pull it off your aiming point.

Shooting at Brown - You need to pick a specific place on the target where you want to aim at. If you settle for shooting as soon as you see your sights on "Brown" there is no telling where your hits will be. Aim Small, Miss Small. But don't get tricked into thinking that aiming at a specific spot on the target will take more time than not aiming.

Blinking While Shooting - If you blink when the shot breaks there is no way that you can call the shot because you can't see. You need to keep your eye(s) open when the shot breaks so you can call the shot.

Not Calling Shots - You must call each shot. This is really the only way that you can consistently shoot quickly and accurately. When you call your shots you can mentally work towards shooting the next shot or engaging the next target as soon as the existing shot breaks and is called good. This instant feedback of KNOWING that the shot is good allows you to quickly work towards making the next shot.

[HoMiE]

I like these definitions...

Speed - The speed at which you see is the speed at which you will shoot.

Accuracy - To fire an accurate shot means to not just hit the target, but to know where the target was hit before the bullet got there.

This always reminds me of Control/Abandon

Get out and practice and see what you need to see/do/feel to know what you need to do.

Edited May 23, 2012 by HoMiE

[CHA-LEE]

Damn- that is a great post Cha-Lee! FWIW I'm a trigger masher.... when I mash.... shots go low. Need to work on this- any tips/tricks to reduce this mashing?

Lager> You need to look at this "Issue" from a different perspective. When you shoot "Fast" but get crappy hits, troubleshoot the issue and figure out WHY you are getting crappy hits when shooting at a fast aggressive speed. There are many different causes as to why peoples hit quality goes into the ditch when they try to shoot fast. You need to break down what you are doing and fix the issues so you can continue to shoot aggressively/quickly AND get all of the points. I have listed below some common causes to poor hit quality when you "Try" to shoot fast....

Double Tapping - Seeing the sights once then whacking the trigger twice hoping that your second hit will be there.

Mashing the Trigger - Using 10lbs of trigger pull force to break the shot on a 2lb trigger.

Flinching - Anticipating the shot and punching the gun down/forward before or when the shot breaks.

Looking at targets while shooting - If you are looking at the targets while shooting instead of your sights there is no way that you will "Know" the quality of your hits as the shot breaks.

Moving your head while shooting - A lot of people tend to move their head to the next target or shooting position as they break the last shot on target. Any head movement while shooting will deviate the gun position and pull it off your aiming point.

Shooting at Brown - You need to pick a specific place on the target where you want to aim at. If you settle for shooting as soon as you see your sights on "Brown" there is no telling where your hits will be. Aim Small, Miss Small. But don't get tricked into thinking that aiming at a specific spot on the target will take more time than not aiming.

Blinking While Shooting - If you blink when the shot breaks there is no way that you can call the shot because you can't see. You need to keep your eye(s) open when the shot breaks so you can call the shot.

Not Calling Shots - You must call each shot. This is really the only way that you can consistently shoot quickly and accurately. When you call your shots you can mentally work towards shooting the next shot or engaging the next target as soon as the existing shot breaks and is called good. This instant feedback of KNOWING that the shot is good allows you to quickly work towards making the next shot.

There are a couple of ways to fix "Mashing" the trigger. The main cause to mashing the trigger is having way too much tension while shooting. When you shoot fast/aggressive your tendency is to grip harder and bear down on the gun, this creates a bunch of tension and leads to mashing. You need to train yourself to relax and shoot with little to no tension, especially when shooting fast. For example, when I am about to shoot a hoser type stage or hoser section of stage I consciously tell myself to relax. This helps me shoot without excessive tension and the accurate sub .15 splits happen effortlessly. Shooting without tension is a very hard skill to perfect. Its a skill that I continually practice every time I go to the range.

Another way to help reduce trigger mashing is to start off with a light trigger (sub 2lbs). That way you KNOW that it does not take much effort to make it go boom when you pull the trigger. If you have a heavy trigger you are almost always in a "Mash It" mode while shooting.

We all mash the trigger at some point during a stage run. It all comes down to how much. My trigger breaks at 2lbs, if I mash it at 2.5 - 3lbs I can usually get away with it on close targets while maintaining solid hits. If I mash it with 10+lbs of force then I am probably pulling the gun off target or at least in the D zone. Having a fairly light trigger and consciously telling myself to relax keeps my trigger mash issues to a minimum.

[lugnut]

Another great response- thank you. Ironically, yes, as I try to push speed (not on tight and/or far shots) I'm sure I do tense up and grip harder- resulting in occasional "mashing". I'm not great at shot calling yet but when my shots go low I'm pretty certain that is what is going on. I don't flinch. I notice the tension much more when I push myself in practice for example. I need to focus more on relaxing while shooting. Difficult to do as the adrenaline in pumping on those field courses... but the top guys certainly look real smooth... and you can't look smooth if you are tense!

There are a couple of ways to fix "Mashing" the trigger. The main cause to mashing the trigger is having way too much tension while shooting. When you shoot fast/aggressive your tendency is to grip harder and bear down on the gun, this creates a bunch of tension and leads to mashing. You need to train yourself to relax and shoot with little to no tension, especially when shooting fast. For example, when I am about to shoot a hoser type stage or hoser section of stage I consciously tell myself to relax. This helps me shoot without excessive tension and the accurate sub .15 splits happen effortlessly. Shooting without tension is a very hard skill to perfect. Its a skill that I continually practice every time I go to the range.

Another way to help reduce trigger mashing is to start off with a light trigger (sub 2lbs). That way you KNOW that it does not take much effort to make it go boom when you pull the trigger. If you have a heavy trigger you are almost always in a "Mash It" mode while shooting.

We all mash the trigger at some point during a stage run. It all comes down to how much. My trigger breaks at 2lbs, if I mash it at 2.5 - 3lbs I can usually get away with it on close targets while maintaining solid hits. If I mash it with 10+lbs of force then I am probably pulling the gun off target or at least in the D zone. Having a fairly light trigger and consciously telling myself to relax keeps my trigger mash issues to a minimum.

[theycallmeingot]

CHA-LEE, how does one go about transitioning from what you define as "double tapping" into 2 quick controlled shots? i don't drop many points throughout a match, but i fear i'm just getting good at double tapping. ie, i have the timing of the gun down to where i feel i don't need to wait on the sights to break the second shot.

how do i break this?

if this is thread drift, feel free to pm me.

[shooterbenedetto]

I also believe in speed meaning in movement!..accuracy(trigger control) will catch up later on.

Watch out for bad habits. I would suggest to take a GM shooting coarse and learn the right way the first time!

Edited May 23, 2012 by shooterbenedetto

[Lager]

So many great responses !! I want to thank everyone for their opinion because they all had excellent advise.

Member Flexmoney had it correct. I made the decision to start this match looking for the highest amount of points and shot slowly to achieve that. This last match was ,basically, a test for myself? Just to see what worked best?

Since I shoot major, a "C" hit does not hurt me much, but slowing and calling the shot target by target and making sure I hit all "A' does.

Really liked Cha-Lee posts, gave me a lot to think about especially how I interact or view the targets.

I think what I have learned is this?

Pick up the pace, a lot, meaning shoot like Im used to. Accept the A/C hits ( for now)

Then work on getting clean double A thru practice.

Learn to shoot on the move, I spend too much time standing and waiting for a stable platform. I do realize there is a time to place your shot right on the money, like on steels or the distant paper targets.

Double tap on the close targets, slow just a little on the distant ones for somewhat of a perfect sight picture.

Never forget about a target and have a no shoot. My local club loves to hide a small target somewhere out there that can only be viewed thru a small port or area of the course of fire. Thats easier said then done, since my mind goes blank when the buzzer goes off most times. Guess thats a topic that can asked at another time.

[Lager]

Member Theycallmeingot ?

I dont think this is a thread drift at all. Many times I might start a convo on a forum and it morphs into something different. Im good with that, plus Im also interested in Cha-Lees response.

[CHA-LEE]

CHA-LEE, how does one go about transitioning from what you define as "double tapping" into 2 quick controlled shots? i don't drop many points throughout a match, but i fear i'm just getting good at double tapping. ie, i have the timing of the gun down to where i feel i don't need to wait on the sights to break the second shot.

how do i break this?

if this is thread drift, feel free to pm me.

Breaking yourself of the dreaded "Double Tap" is all about making the decision to treat each shot as an individual process of seeing the sights, processing the sight picture, breaking the shot and calling the shot good/marginal/bad. Then start the whole process over after the gun recovers from recoil. Once you force yourself to call each shot and practice this process enough the shooting simply happens once the sight picture is valid. Calling your shots is 100% visual so let your vision dictate the shooting speed. If you don't allow yourself to see what you need to see for each shot then you simply revert to cadence based shooting which is also known as Double Tapping.

Since calling shots is 100% visual this also ties into having a specific aiming point on the target. This allows you to strive towards creating the proper sight alignment on target to give you the mental thumbs up to break the shot and then call it. If you don't have a specific aiming point and are simply shooting at "Brown" you never get a consistent sight picture of the sights on the target which greatly hinders your ability to give the sight picture a thumbs up when its good to break the shot. Training yourself to know what the valid sight picture needed is for various target configurations and distances takes a LOT of live fire practice. For example, the valid sight picture of a 5 Yard open target is a lot different than a 15 Yard partial or 25 yard open target. You need to practice these different target distances and partial target configurations extensively to know what level of sight picture is needed for any given target or distance. Doing this enables you to quickly change shooting speeds between targets because you will know how refined the sight picture needs to be for any given target.

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to point out that reading about this stuff on the forum is good, but it will never be a replacement for effective training. Having someone physically there to watch you shoot, point out your errors, then show you the proper way to do it is priceless. We can talk about this stuff on the forum until our fingers are worn out, but that really isn't going to do much but get you thinking about doing something different. For a few people that is enough to prod them into making a change in their shooting. But for most, they need someone physically there to slap them up side the head when they screw up.

[sroe3]

A couple of things...beware of shooting with cadence. Close targets can, and should, be shot much quicker than further targets and steel. Learn to shoot at fast as necessary, not as fast as possible. It comes back to the "shooting as fast as you can see" comments.

Speed should happen between shots. "Shoot for points, everything else for time." I will shoot the same, or more, raw points than the Master who wins our local matches. It just takes me 30 seconds longer.

[kjolly]

Relax and have fun. speed and accuracy follows.

[Lager]

Cha-Lee, I must say that you are a very talented shooter and I didnt realize that until I saw most of your videos.

Its one thing to talk, its another to deliver. That you do very well.

In your messages, you talk of " seeing your shot" before you actually take the next and try not to double tap blindly.

After watching many of the vids of you shooting, both long range and short range targets ?

I find it hard to believe that you are shooting at the short range targets at the speed you do so, without trusting your gun to be in the right position at the right time.

Im sorry, But I dont believe you when you say you "see every shot"

You shoot too quickly for that to happen in my opinion.

I mean no disrespect, please dont take this as so.

I believe you have an ability that most of do not have.

I believe you have a piece of equipment that you have practiced with enough,that you can count on being on target for your next shot.

I dont think your "seeing" the next shot. I think its expecting or knowing your next shot will be on the target because of talent and many hours of practice.

You have a talent or an ability that rivals pro ball players. Unfortunately, the pay scale isnt fair.