Eliminate divisions from classification system?

[motosapiens]

To me it is all in the context of the placement. Getting first place in the C class is great. Beating 20 or 25 percent of the B shooters to get there is better. Now that I am a low B, I expect to get smoked by the A,M and GM shooters. The classification system allows us to see how we are doing against shooters of similar abilities. Is there really a difference between a high C and a low B? Not really, it is just an arbitrary cut off point in the percentages. That difference really starts to disappear as you move from A to M to GM. At this level it becomes less about how quick you can shoot and more about accuracy and how quick you move, transition, and plan.

You make some good points, especially regarding shooters you don't know. Seeing the class next to their name in the overall standings helps provide some context to how you did. However, giving prizes to the High D or High C encourages people to be dishonest with their classifications, and cheapens the whole system.

Even as a newb I'm already competing against A's and M's. If my percentage of their hit factor improves from month to month, then that means I must be improving.

[Sean Gaines]

Here is one solution: I am just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see if it sticks. lol

I am sure that there are a few shooters in the country that shoot classifiers consistantly over the 100% mark, ex: Sevigny, Max, Eusebio, Tilley, Leatham, vogel, Blake etc. etc. Call those guys the key shooters, now if one of those key shooters shoots any match, beside local, and a person who is ranked at a B class level shoots 85% of one of the key shooters in that match, then he automatically gets bumped to Master. Under the current classification, I am around 91%(Master), If I shot 85% of Blake, I would say that i had a great match. The sandbagging is done at the local level, so they can win at the major match level. so in essence a shooter can get classified at the local level, but it doesn't mean anything until they shoot their first major with a key shooter. when they shoot that match against a key shooter then their classification will be adjusted accordingly.

What would be wrong with this system of classification?

This is the way I undestand that it is. With the exception there has to be 3 GMs to get bumped. What if only 1 GM was shooting that division, and they had two really bad stages and you shot the match clean.

Should you get bumped?

I am saying key shooters established by the board, people who have won national titles, and or people who consistantly shoot 100% classifiers, would be the key shooters, than if that shooter shoots any match besides a local, it will bump the shooter in class if they shot better than their classification states.

if the key shooter has a couple of bad stages, they sometimes do, it should still count. I have shot stages, were i have won the stage, and tell myself I could have knocked off another half second off my time. So haveing a bad stage is relative to the each shooter.

[sperman]

I doubt that L-10, SS or Revo gets enough GM's for the match to count as a classifier anywhere other than nationals. (I just checked A1 and A6 for this year and that is the case.)

[BillD]

I know a guy that tore up prize tables for years winning majors in C class. And it took years for USPSA to catch on. They finally moved him to Master. From C to Master...

How's that for sandbagging?

Solution: Eliminate prizes for classes. Raffle them off so that sandbaggers can still brag about getting 'high D', but the people who are trying to improve their classification as fast as they can might also win something. You could still have a plague or something for High D, so their parents will be proud.

We get your mocking of classes. Really, we got it.

[BillD]

Some major matches are "classifier matches" if enough GMs shoot it AND if they shoot their appropriate talent level. I think more majors, not just level IIIs, should do this. We've established that people sandbag to win a prize at a major. If we have that major be a classification match as well, then at least that shooter is done sandbagging at one event rather than a whole season.

I dont like the idea of no divisions tho. Im a B in SS/L10/Lim right now but a terribly low C in revo and have never shot Open before. If i buy a brand new open gun, Id expect some growing pains for awhile and don't think it'd be fair to throw me into B class because I shoot iron sighted guns to that level. Am I capable of competing there or higher with some practice and dedication? Probably. And if so, my classifier scores and major match performance (maybe) will move me there.

Unless we move to a system where there are NO CLASSES and everyone shoots for an overall win and prize tables simply go in order of finish, there will always be sandbagging to some level. No two ways around it.

My point is if you can shoot B class in Limited, LIM10 and SS, with a range session or two, you should be able to shoot B class with an open gun. Revo might take a little work.

The way the class system is set up, it invites sandbagging and making M then all other divisions are A is institutionalized sandbagging.

[motosapiens]

We get your mocking of classes. Really, we got it.

Only mocking the idea of bragging about being 'best in class' or getting prizes for it. The concept of classes and classification in general imho has some merit in helping people to quantify their improvement and providing tangible goals.

[Jim Norman]

It is much better to be able to say you were High C then to say you were 75th out of 145.

This is the part I disagree with and don't really understand. I think bragging about being High C would be pretty embarassing to me. I'd feel MUCH better about saying I was 75th out of 145 when 6 months ago I was 100th out of 145.

But I understand many people agree with your thinking and would stop competing if they didn't get their dose of 'everyone is a winner'. That doesn't bother me. I just mock them.

I look for shooters who are typically doing a little better than me (regardless of division), and focus my efforts on catching them and improving, and moving to the next class.

I don't think that there is an Everyone is a Winner thing here. What there is in USPSA is people that are Pro and near Pro shooting at the same time as people who shoot one match a month for fun. We all shoot the same course at the same time. Can you imagine going to the track and running against the top NASCAR drivers? How about playing Golf? You go out and play with out a handicap against Tiger. That is what we do, we compete directly against the world's top shooters. The Classification system gives us a way to mark and reward progress. And to allow those that will never achieve nor care to strive to achieve M status a place to compete.

Does it hurt anyone? Not that I see, I have to admit that I don't really care if I win High Senior, I'll take it, and anything else the system provides, but I look only at how I place against the best. When I started however, I picked people that were better than I, but not so out of reach as to be discouraging when I made a comparison.

I just finished 19 out of over 130 at a match. I sucked! Had one stage that I am proud of an dI know I should have placed at least one or tow spots higher on that one. the rest, i can see screw-up after screw-up. All my fault and I know exactly what I did, but I am striving even at my age to be the top dog. Attainable? Not likely, but I strive for it. However the people that are shooting their best match ever and are in the lower 25%, with a classification system can have their own match within the larger match. That is really what the Classification system does for us. And I think it helps keep the sport vibrant.

[motosapiens]

Can you imagine going to the track and running against the top NASCAR drivers? How about playing Golf? You go out and play with out a handicap against Tiger.

You make many good points that I can agree with. I only have comments on the above.

Safety is the main issue in motorsports, and I think it's imperative to split up into ability levels (but counterproductive to offer big prizes to the support classes).

I think golf handicaps make sense for fun, and giving you a motivational target, but I bet if they give out cool prizes based on them, then there is a similar problem of people sandbagging and intentionally limiting their own improvement to win the prizes.

It's all good tho. I'll keep shooting and having fun.

[Chills1994]

In my ideal world where there would be no classifications, my prize table procedure would be division champs go first. And then most likely after that what is left would be raffled off.

I haven't looked at major 3 gun match results in a while, but I am ASSuming they are doing and were doing just fine without classifications. And I think the steel challenge was doing just fine without classifications (until USPSA bought it, and HQ is making it sound like that will change).

[Strick]

Do match bumps really happen? It is in the rulebook but I don't see to much of it happening. I think if you win your class, there is a GM in your division, and you shoot a percentage into the next higher class you get a bump. Making this mandatory would go a long way to the perceived sandbagging.

[Strick]

In my ideal world where there would be no classifications, my prize table procedure would be division champs go first. And then most likely after that what is left would be raffled off.

I haven't looked at major 3 gun match results in a while, but I am ASSuming they are doing and were doing just fine without classifications. And I think the steel challenge was doing just fine without classifications (until USPSA bought it, and HQ is making it sound like that will change).

I think it works OK for 3 gun because the prize tables are huge and even a 100th place finisher is getting a real prize, not a coozy. Do you think they would be getting the numbers they are if only the division winners won the guns and/or high dollar prizes?

[Jim Norman]

The way the class system is set up, it invites sandbagging and making M then all other divisions are A is institutionalized sandbagging.

Not really. If one shoots say L10 exclusively and then wants to shoot another division, he starts out as a U, shooting only for the top as soon as he gets 4 classifiers, he at worst is one level below his best, no matter what that might be. A GM open shooter is an M in Production after 4 classifiers, Completely different gear, completely different stage breakdowns. Yes in a reasonable time, assuming he shoots Prod on a somewhat regular schedule, he'll make a real master score, maybe even GM. But he is NOT a M to start with in this division and there is certainly a difference.

[Chills1994]

In my ideal world where there would be no classifications, my prize table procedure would be division champs go first. And then most likely after that what is left would be raffled off.

I haven't looked at major 3 gun match results in a while, but I am ASSuming they are doing and were doing just fine without classifications. And I think the steel challenge was doing just fine without classifications (until USPSA bought it, and HQ is making it sound like that will change).

I think it works OK for 3 gun because the prize tables are huge and even a 100th place finisher is getting a real prize, not a coozy. Do you think they would be getting the numbers they are if only the division winners won the guns and/or high dollar prizes?

and what about Steel Challenge?

[jar]

I like having the classification system to track my progress as I get better. The only time I've looked where I finished in my class was at Area 7, to see if I got a nationals slot. I'm fine with class awards if it's what people want, but I think prize tables should be order of finish and/or random draw. Prizes based on class create a clear incentive to sandbag. Is sandbagging to get the first C certificate really something people do?

[bbbean]

As someone who considers the class and division system useful and a big part of the appeal of the sport, I wonder why those who insist they are only competing against the best care so much if I take a little extra pleasure in being high C or high B. It's like getting upset because the guy next to you on the highway thinks his beater is a hot rod. Let him enjoy his car and go on about your business.

The current system works, and while there are those who abuse it, I believe those exceptions are fewer and further between than you'd guess from reading this thread. Besides, the shooting world is pretty small, and notorious sandbaggers have to live with the reputation. Time wounds all heels.

BB

[Jim Norman]

As someone who considers the class and division system useful and a big part of the appeal of the sport, I wonder why those who insist they are only competing against the best care so much if I take a little extra pleasure in being high C or high B. It's like getting upset because the guy next to you on the highway thinks his beater is a hot rod. Let him enjoy his car and go on about your business.

The current system works, and while there are those who abuse it, I believe those exceptions are fewer and further between than you'd guess from reading this thread. Besides, the shooting world is pretty small, and notorious sandbaggers have to live with the reputation. Time wounds all heels.

BB

Well Said

[redwoods]

The current system works as well as it can. It would be hard to make it better.

I shot an Area 6 match as C Production and got 6th. I tracked the guy who won and saw that he was in A Class in less than a year!?

I am a B shooter in limited and lim10. I am C in SS and Prod and Open. I don't shoot my single stack as well as my limited gun. I thought I could win C class in SS at the Florida Open, but got 3rd!

At major shooting matches......Nationals, Areas, and Fl Open, Double Tap, etc, the shooters that will win the classes are probably the next class up than in the division they are shooting.

If you want to compete for first place at a major match, you need to be at the very top of your class or the next class up in another division. Just my opinion.

Randy

[Chills1994]

As someone who considers the class and division system useful and a big part of the appeal of the sport, I wonder why those who insist they are only competing against the best care so much if I take a little extra pleasure in being high C or high B. It's like getting upset because the guy next to you on the highway thinks his beater is a hot rod. Let him enjoy his car and go on about your business.

The current system works, and while there are those who abuse it, I believe those exceptions are fewer and further between than you'd guess from reading this thread. Besides, the shooting world is pretty small, and notorious sandbaggers have to live with the reputation. Time wounds all heels.

BB

The last time I did a search here for either "sandbagg" or "sandbagging", there were 17 pages worth of results that came up.

I have this gut feeling that sandbagging is a lot like crime. There is a heck of a lot more of it going on than what is noticed or reported, a tip of the iceberg sort of thing.

[bikerburgess]

Do match bumps really happen? It is in the rulebook but I don't see to much of it happening. I think if you win your class, there is a GM in your division, and you shoot a percentage into the next higher class you get a bump. Making this mandatory would go a long way to the perceived sandbagging.

Yes

I got bumped from C to B at Area 1 a couple of years ago, I went into the match with a classifier average a little under 50% I shot a great match, for me and finished 2nd C at 63%. The match went in as a classifier and bumped out a low score and moved me up to 58% then about 2 weeks later I got a letter congratulating me on my good performance at the match and letting me know I wan now a B class production shooter. I know the guy that got 3rd C and was less than 1% behind me and he didn't get bumped, but he went into the match with a high 50's average. Let me say that I do not think this was a bad thing.

Mike

[Chills1994]

And by tip of the iceberg I mean just whatever we hear or read about on this forum.

[Nik Habicht]

It is much better to be able to say you were High C then to say you were 75th out of 145.

This is the part I disagree with and don't really understand. I think bragging about being High C would be pretty embarassing to me. I'd feel MUCH better about saying I was 75th out of 145 when 6 months ago I was 100th out of 145.

But I understand many people agree with your thinking and would stop competing if they didn't get their dose of 'everyone is a winner'. That doesn't bother me. I just mock them.

I look for shooters who are typically doing a little better than me (regardless of division), and focus my efforts on catching them and improving, and moving to the next class.

When I was in the hunt for Top C, or for Top B at local matches it wasn't about "being a winner." I can read the scoreboard -- and see how very far I have to go....

It was however entertaining to hear the lamentations of my friends when I had a particularly good run on a stage, or occasionally for a whole match. Good-humored trash-talking and wanting to excel against friends who could beat you at any given match was a lot of additional fun, on top of the usual match pleasures....

[cnote]

6/13/10 10AR5 ILLINOIS TRI-COUNTY P.C.S. Y 56.9700 7/06/10

6/13/10 99-28 ILLINOIS TRI-COUNTY P.C.S. Y 69.6929 7/02/10

This bumped me to B a couple of years ago, because I was trying to do my best, but the first score is the one that shows me the truth, 56.97 of the GM's on that day. Yes I have some other 60's on classifiers, but have a harder time pulling off a B performance at a major. I accept it. If I want to get better, it simply takes MORE work.....

57.859% at Area 5 2011

More work necessary to be a true B

[Strick]

I am not talking about using that match as a classifier score that is factored into your classification. I am saying that if you shoot a percentage higher than your current class and win your class you get bumped, no matter what your percentage is.

[tackdr1ver]

I seriously doubt that this would be an effective way of judging the class of a shooter. You run into many problems trying to tie classifications from one division to the next. It certainly would not be an accurate representation across the board.

For example: You take shooter A who is a Limited shooter and has always been a limited shooter. While he may do fantastic in limited circles with less reloads, speedier times, and less accurate shots, he would do poorly in production. In production that same guy will not be used to making so many reloads, he will also not be hunting for as many points as if he was shooting limited. Also this shooter will probably break down a stage like a limited shooter would, therefore it probably would not be optimal for production.

Take shooter B who is a production shooter and make him shoot limited. The guy who always shoots production will default to his usual way of stage breakdown and most likely be slower as a result. Also, this shooter will probably hunt down points more diligently vs the limited guy shooting for 90% this will also slow him vs. the rest of the pack as a result.

Shooter C is a single stack guy who only thinks in sixes, he shoots a more conservative game than shooter A or shooter B because you have to make rounds count more in single stack. Throw him in production or limited/lim 10 and you're going to see a whole different shooter.

Shooter D is a speed demon open shooter with two big sticks, put him in Lim 10 and watch the meltdown.

Take any one of the shooters and then throw them into Revo, the wheels come off completely and you then see smoke coming out of that shooters ears, brains are scrambled and the shooter feels like it's his first time picking up a gun.

Now don't get me wrong, a solid shooter in any class will have the skills to cross over at any point to another division. But you can not expect an optimal performance indicative of their true capabilities within that division until they have spent time in that division. A shooter basically needs time and practice to get their game where it is optimal in any given division.

[Chris iliff]

VIBRANT!

Good description of classification system. Without it the sport would whither.

Every single sport has it. It's all in how you think of it. Take racing, or basketball, or any sport. They all have LEVELS.

We just do it all together and not separate. Our sport affords us the opportunity to compete right next to the best. Local dirt track hero isn't racing Stewart often. IMHO.