Will the Shake-Up at the Top Amount to Anything?

[DocMedic]

Looks like KC was using a Open Glock. looks like SJC will be selling some kits here soon!

[38supPat]

Production is purely based off skill because all of the equipment is very similar.

Limited is purely based off skill because all of the equipment is very similar.

Limited 10 is purely based off skill because all of the equipment is very similar.

Revolver is purely based off skill because all of the equipment is very similar.

Open is purely based off skill because all of the equipment is very similar.

Just sayin'

[GrumpyOne]

Glocks are the king in production

Yeah? What were the top 15 at Nationals shooting this year? 3 Glocks, 3 M&P's, 1 XDM, 1 Beretta, 1 Sig, and 6 CZ'S. Glocks may be royalty, but they ain't the king.....BTW, 4 of the CZ'S were ahead of the 2nd Glock....and a Beretta being shot by Ben Stoeger won it.

[Neomet]

"Fan base"? I love the sport but USPSA doesn't even make it onto ESPN 8 "The Ocho". The fan base as I see it are the participants. Outside of cost considerations we shoot the division(s) we like for the reasons we like.

For myself, Eric's move to Production actually has gotten me to give Production a go. I've always considered it one of the most challenging divisions to shoot and well, at my age, the dot makes the vision challenges less of a pain. Who knows though, I may find the challenges of Production too great and I'll move away. Either way the movement did get me thinking about Production again.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Neomet

[T3P_Guy]

Everyone says that limited is a better or whatever division because it's faster. How much faster is limited than production anyways? It only has 2 advantages that I can see, mag capacity and major power factor. When more big dogs hit up production I have a feeling that if you compare scores side by side with limited there actually won't be much of a difference at all....

[Thomas H]

Everyone says that limited is a better or whatever division because it's faster. How much faster is limited than production anyways? It only has 2 advantages that I can see, mag capacity and major power factor. When more big dogs hit up production I have a feeling that if you compare scores side by side with limited there actually won't be much of a difference at all....

Really? Considering I believe there already are people who are considered "Big Dogs" in Production (unless, of course, you consider Dave Sevigny, Ben Stoeger, Rob Leatham, and Bob Vogel 2nd tier) I think you are going to find that indeed, Limited runs will tend to be faster and higher scoring that Production runs, even from the same shooters.

Which, I believe, they will also tell you. (Otherwise lots more people would be running Limited Minor, for example---even less reloads with all the other advantages of Limited.)

Mag capacity, major scoring, holster type/placement, mag pouch placement, additional modifications for firearms allowed---every single one of those things will make a difference in stage scores. Some of those are tiny differences, some are larger. However, since last year's USPSA Nationals were won by tiny amounts for several divisions, I'm think those things would matter in any comparison.

Short form of the above: Production already has "big dogs" in it---more people won't magically mean that Production will be run as fast as Limited suddenly.

(As a supporting example: 2011 Lim/Prod Nats---The top score for each stage had the Limited runs always faster than the Production run, with an average percentage difference of 12% faster per run. And I don't think anyone can effectively argue that there weren't "Big Dogs" in each of those divisions.)

[KentG]

Herd mentatlity. Some hot shots get paid to shoot it so its just GOTTA be the best. I shoot what I like and could care less where it puts me. I predict a year or so from now there will be a glut of used production guns for sale when the next big thing hits. Some shooters are worse than women having to have this years dress and haircut.

[Kevin Pledger]

Interesting results from the recent Extreme Euro Open.

Classic Division - Angus Hobdell - 2556.7160 Points

Open Division - Emile Obriot - 2551.4746 Points

Production Division - Eric Grauffel - 2549.5590 Points

Standard Division - Jaine Diaz Juan Carlos - 2418.8212 Points

I guess EG can shoot just as fast in PD gun as he can with his Open Gun. As someone mentioned earlier from the 2011 Nats there was about a 12% difference between Limited and PD, in this case, its plain to see that even shooting Minor he outscored Standard Division and was only 1.9156 points behind the top Open competitor.

So will be very interesting time leading upto the WS in 2014 and how JJ / KC and all others whom are now shooting PD stack up.

Cheers ....

[glefos]

Interesting results from the recent Extreme Euro Open.

Classic Division - Angus Hobdell - 2556.7160 Points

Open Division - Emile Obriot - 2551.4746 Points

Production Division - Eric Grauffel - 2549.5590 Points

Standard Division - Jaine Diaz Juan Carlos - 2418.8212 Points

I guess EG can shoot just as fast in PD gun as he can with his Open Gun. As someone mentioned earlier from the 2011 Nats there was about a 12% difference between Limited and PD, in this case, its plain to see that even shooting Minor he outscored Standard Division and was only 1.9156 points behind the top Open competitor.

So will be very interesting time leading upto the WS in 2014 and how JJ / KC and all others whom are now shooting PD stack up.

Cheers ....

You can't compare overall match points across divisions. Scoring doesn't work that way. Match points are accumulated only based on performance within your Division.

[Thomas H]

Interesting results from the recent Extreme Euro Open.

Classic Division - Angus Hobdell - 2556.7160 Points

Open Division - Emile Obriot - 2551.4746 Points

Production Division - Eric Grauffel - 2549.5590 Points

Standard Division - Jaine Diaz Juan Carlos - 2418.8212 Points

I guess EG can shoot just as fast in PD gun as he can with his Open Gun. As someone mentioned earlier from the 2011 Nats there was about a 12% difference between Limited and PD, in this case, its plain to see that even shooting Minor he outscored Standard Division and was only 1.9156 points behind the top Open competitor.

So will be very interesting time leading upto the WS in 2014 and how JJ / KC and all others whom are now shooting PD stack up.

Cheers ....

No, what I said was that there was an average of 12% difference in time for the 1st place runs on each stage between Production and Limited division shooters.

The points given above have nothing to do with that---as someone else has already said, match points in one division have nothing to do with match points in a different division. (Literally. Scores on any stage in one division are not used in any fashion within another division.) There is no point of comparison.

Now, if you can find actual stage TIMES or stage HIT FACTORS, that might be interesting to compare.

But match scores? Don't mean anything across divisions.

----I got curious, as you said that he shot Production as fast as he shot Open, so I pulled the times from the top runs for the Open and Production shooters for that match. (Note: Grauffel only had about 10 stage wins, so the times for Production are for the most part better than the times he had.)

http://2012.extremeeuroopen.eu/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=119

Using those times---we again see almost a 12% difference between the Open and Production time. (This is Open vs Production, though, not Limited vs Production this time.) And never did the time for the top Production score beat the time for the top Open score on any stage.

So---no, he can't run his Production gun as fast as his Open gun. This isn't a surprise, nor does it in any way take away from the fact that Grauffel is a great shooter. (Plus, HAD he been shooting Open, the times would probably have been even better for Open, thus widening the gap.)