DQ offense for finger in trigger guard during Make Ready

[jdphotoguy]

Was watching the PowerFactor Show video below and at the end they posed a rules question that I would like people's opinions on. The question was, after the Make Ready command, you drawl your gun, load it, then take a sight picture with your finger in the trigger guard. Is this a DQ offense and if so state the USPSA rule that applies?

Edited April 17, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[PKT1106]

If it's not against the rules, it's kind of a stupid thing to do. You should take your sight picture unloaded at all times so you don't risk an AD or ND. In the last issue of Front Sight, I think Amidon said taking a loaded gun sight picture isn't against the rules, but to make sure the RO knows what you are doing. Some may find having the finger in the trigger guard while loaded and before the start signal as a DQ-able offense as it is not a safe practice.

If it were me, and I couldn't find a rule that allowed it, given what it is, I would probably DQ the shooter for an unsafe condition.

[sperman]

Here are a couple of threads on a similar question.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=147555&st=0&p=1655978&hl=finger%20trigger&fromsearch=1entry1655978

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=104188&st=0&p=1185379&hl=finger%20trigger&fromsearch=1entry1185379

[Sarge]

Here are the finger rules:

10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a

malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away

from aiming at targets.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make

Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in

accordance with Section 8.5.

[jdphotoguy]

Here are a couple of threads on a similar question.

http://www.brianenos...1

http://www.brianenos...1

Thanks, I know better then to post a thread without searching to see if the question has already been posed. My bad, 10 demerits and a timeout.

[jdphotoguy]

Here are the finger rules:

10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a

malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away

from aiming at targets.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the "Make

Ready" command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in

accordance with Section 8.5.

So are you saying it is or isn't a DQ offense?

[jdphotoguy]

If it's not against the rules, it's kind of a stupid thing to do. You should take your sight picture unloaded at all times so you don't risk an AD or ND. In the last issue of Front Sight, I think Amidon said taking a loaded gun sight picture isn't against the rules, but to make sure the RO knows what you are doing. Some may find having the finger in the trigger guard while loaded and before the start signal as a DQ-able offense as it is not a safe practice.

If it were me, and I couldn't find a rule that allowed it, given what it is, I would probably DQ the shooter for an unsafe condition.

I agree it a very stupid thing to do and I would warn a shooter against doing it, but the point is you can't DQ someone unless you can find the specific rules that supports the DQ and I don't see a rule that says it's not allowed.

[Sarge]

Here are the finger rules:

10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a

malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away

from aiming at targets.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the "Make

Ready" command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in

accordance with Section 8.5.

So are you saying it is or isn't a DQ offense?

It's not a DQ. A shooter can take a sight picture, pull the trigger, whatever while making ready as long as he does not violate one of the written rules.

[sperman]

Here are a couple of threads on a similar question.

http://www.brianenos...1

http://www.brianenos...1

Thanks, I know better then to post a thread without searching to see if the question has already been posed. My bad, 10 demerits and a timeout.

I didn't intend for it to come across that way. I was just trying to point you to some good threads on the subject.

[jdphotoguy]

Here are a couple of threads on a similar question.

http://www.brianenos...1

http://www.brianenos...1

Thanks, I know better then to post a thread without searching to see if the question has already been posed. My bad, 10 demerits and a timeout.

I didn't intend for it to come across that way. I was just trying to point you to some good threads on the subject.

No harm, no foul, I did not take it as anything other then pointing out some threads on the same subject. I'm just mad at myself for not doing a search first.

[Nik Habicht]

Here are the finger rules:

10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a

malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away

from aiming at targets.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the "Make

Ready" command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in

accordance with Section 8.5.

So are you saying it is or isn't a DQ offense?

AS long as the shooter's stationary, not clearing a malfunction, or loading the gun, it's fine --

....much like a loaded sight picture is fine. What's the difference between a loaded sight picture prior to the beep and after? The gun may go bang only after the beep. If the mere act of pointing a loaded gun at a target from the start position is a safety issue, there's a problem with the stage design.....

[SteveZ]

Then explain the need for the exception if its not a DQ'able offense. If its not a DQ, then there would be no need for putting in an exception for lowering of the hammer of a gun without a decocker. Why is the except there then if you're allowed to put your finger in the gun's trigger guard?

[sperman]

Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins.

In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading.

I'll second what George said, and add this:

There is nothing in USPSA rules that prohibits taking a loaded sight picture. While the rulebook does specify a definition for a loaded gun, loading one and having a loaded gun are two different things. Having your finger in the trigger guard while in the act of loading, i.e., inserting a magazine, racking the slide, etc., is a DQ for unsafe gun handling. However, taking a loaded sight picture is not against the rules, and having your finger in the trigger guard while doing so isn't against the rules, either. If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD. The practice you describe is not against either SC or USPSA rules as I understand them. All the competitor is doing is taking a loaded sight picture.

Troy

Two NROI Instructors say it isn't a DQ'able offense. That's good enough for me.

[Nik Habicht]

Then explain the need for the exception if its not a DQ'able offense. If its not a DQ, then there would be no need for putting in an exception for lowering of the hammer of a gun without a decocker. Why is the except there then if you're allowed to put your finger in the gun's trigger guard?

Th command is "Make Ready", not "load the gun."

"Make Ready" encompasses more than just loading the gun. It's a command that allows the shooter to handle. As long as he keeps his finger out of the trigger guard during loading, unloading, reloading, malfunction clearance, and moving while not shooting targets, he's fine.....

Not a match DQ.

[Nik Habicht]

Now whether the practice/habit is a good idea, that's a different story....

[vluc]

Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins.

In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading.

I'll second what George said, and add this:

There is nothing in USPSA rules that prohibits taking a loaded sight picture. While the rulebook does specify a definition for a loaded gun, loading one and having a loaded gun are two different things. Having your finger in the trigger guard while in the act of loading, i.e., inserting a magazine, racking the slide, etc., is a DQ for unsafe gun handling. However, taking a loaded sight picture is not against the rules, and having your finger in the trigger guard while doing so isn't against the rules, either. If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD. The practice you describe is not against either SC or USPSA rules as I understand them. All the competitor is doing is taking a loaded sight picture.

Troy

Two NROI Instructors say it isn't a DQ'able offense. That's good enough for me.

And me as well, although I wonder about the whole finger/dq. Mactiger has a statement that should probably apply to all of the finger in the trigger guard discussions. "If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD". Should not matter about movement, reloading, etc. If the gun goes off, you have the answer. If it does not, then it should not be an issue. Too many new RO's (some of them fledgling Range Nazi's)seem to live for the opportunity to call this one. On reloading or movement, they are positive it is happening.

Had a shooter report it to me at a recent local match (and he's not the first over the last several years). I've run him for years. He has short stubby fingers and it can look like he does not have his finger out when in fact he does. Saw this at an Area match with a newer RO who thought a shooter did not have his finger out as well. I've seen/run this guy as well, he is missing part of his index finger.

Would not be a big issue to me to see the rule disappear altogether, especially on 10.5.10. If the gun goes boom, you go bye-bye. Keep it simple.

[Gary Stevens]

Then explain the need for the exception if its not a DQ'able offense. If its not a DQ, then there would be no need for putting in an exception for lowering of the hammer of a gun without a decocker. Why is the except there then if you're allowed to put your finger in the gun's trigger guard?

It was put in as a clarification to protect the shooters of that gun platform from wrong headed RO's.

[SteveZ]

Gary and Nik....I think the exception actually adds confusion. Nik my question about "why the exception" was not trying to suggest its a DQ. If you start with the assumption that its NOT a DQ ( putting your finger in the trigger guard during the COF while standing still (not moving, not changing position...NOT A DQ) is no different than putting your finger in the trigger guard during the LAMR step...regardless of the gun platform)...then there is no need for the exception at all...there is no protection necessary because there is nothing to protect...if its not a DQ.

I think the exception causes confusion because the way it reads is that "its a DQ to put your finger in the trigger guard during loading...unless you have a gun without a decocker and then its OK to lower the hammer". I understand the "step process theory" (you're loading when you stick the magazine in...then your loaded...you're loading again when you chamber a round..then your loaded)...but I think it would be physically impossible to do either of those actions while trying to lower the hammer at the same time with a decockerless gun.

I think the exception is causing confusion and creating "wrong headed RO's".

Edited April 18, 2012 by SteveZ

[Poppa Bear]

Then explain the need for the exception if its not a DQ'able offense. If its not a DQ, then there would be no need for putting in an exception for lowering of the hammer of a gun without a decocker. Why is the except there then if you're allowed to put your finger in the gun's trigger guard?

I would say the exceptions are there because they allow the shooter to actually squeeze the trigger and drop the hammer. Granted if the gun goes bang they are DQ'ed but the loaded sight picture will also be DQ'ed if the gun goes bang.

[Gary Stevens]

Gary and Nik....I think the exception actually adds confusion. Nik my question about "why the exception" was not trying to suggest its a DQ. If you start with the assumption that its NOT a DQ ( putting your finger in the trigger guard during the COF while standing still (not moving, not changing position...NOT A DQ) is no different than putting your finger in the trigger guard during the LAMR step...regardless of the gun platform)...then there is no need for the exception at all...there is no protection necessary because there is nothing to protect...if its not a DQ.

I think the exception causes confusion because the way it reads is that "its a DQ to put your finger in the trigger guard during loading...unless you have a gun without a decocker and then its OK to lower the hammer". I understand the "step process theory" (you're loading when you stick the magazine in...then your loaded...you're loading again when you chamber a round..then your loaded)...but I think it would be physically impossible to do either of those actions while trying to lower the hammer at the same time with a decockerless gun.

I think the exception is causing confusion and creating "wrong headed RO's".

I was in on the discussion's when this was clarified. As I remember it, it was clarified because some RO's were attempting to DQ shooters who were shooting SP-01 platforms without the decocker. I guess they were overlooking the fact that there was no other way to lower the hammer and comply with the Production Division rules unless they did it manually.

I don't RO/CRO/ or RM as much as I used to, but I really don't see that much confusion about the rule.

[John Baier]

Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins.

In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading.

I'll second what George said, and add this:

There is nothing in USPSA rules that prohibits taking a loaded sight picture. While the rulebook does specify a definition for a loaded gun, loading one and having a loaded gun are two different things. Having your finger in the trigger guard while in the act of loading, i.e., inserting a magazine, racking the slide, etc., is a DQ for unsafe gun handling. However, taking a loaded sight picture is not against the rules, and having your finger in the trigger guard while doing so isn't against the rules, either. If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD. The practice you describe is not against either SC or USPSA rules as I understand them. All the competitor is doing is taking a loaded sight picture.

Troy

Two NROI Instructors say it isn't a DQ'able offense. That's good enough for me.

And me as well, although I wonder about the whole finger/dq. Mactiger has a statement that should probably apply to all of the finger in the trigger guard discussions. "If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD". Should not matter about movement, reloading, etc. If the gun goes off, you have the answer. If it does not, then it should not be an issue. Too many new RO's (some of them fledgling Range Nazi's)seem to live for the opportunity to call this one. On reloading or movement, they are positive it is happening.

Had a shooter report it to me at a recent local match (and he's not the first over the last several years). I've run him for years. He has short stubby fingers and it can look like he does not have his finger out when in fact he does. Saw this at an Area match with a newer RO who thought a shooter did not have his finger out as well. I've seen/run this guy as well, he is missing part of his index finger.

Would not be a big issue to me to see the rule disappear altogether, especially on 10.5.10. If the gun goes boom, you go bye-bye. Keep it simple.

Not a big deal unless you're the one on the wrong end of the 'AD". I've seen shooters snag their guns on props, slip and fall, break the 180, etc... No, rules regarding finger in the trigger guard are there for a reason.

[aztecdriver]

Not a big deal unless you're the one on the wrong end of the 'AD". I've seen shooters snag their guns on props, slip and fall, break the 180, etc... No, rules regarding finger in the trigger guard are there for a reason.

Yeah - I know, i can agree with this - to a point - but one of my first called DQs was a newer to USPSA older gentleman (ex- military) that had a chamber jam and started yanking and yanking, and then he flipped the gun on the axis 45 degrees so I could see the weak side from behind and what I saw scared the crap out of me. He still had not released the trigger from the previous attempted firing - pinned back using the second pad on his finger. The way he started working at it I would have had to step up parallel to the gun to see what was doing until a half second later when he did the roll...

There IS a place for the finger rule - and it's not always as simple to SEE as people think... toughie...

[West Texas Granny]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

[aztecdriver]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

I'm not going to respond to a stated incorrect factoid from inexperienced individuals.

I'll gladly entertain a discussion as to why you might be believe it to be unsafe, but being as you have stated this plainly as fact - my only response to your statement is - wrong.

Edited April 29, 2012 by aztecdriver

[spanky]

The only reason for the trigger finger to be inside the trigger well is to discharge the weapon. Taking a sight picture with a loaded gun with the finger in the trigger well is simply unsafe and an accident waiting to happen.

So if that's the case, dryfiring to "if clear, hammer down, holster" is also unsafe.