Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Ok, I've puzzled on this for a few days, still not sure I have the appropriate answer. Scenario: - Shooter is shooting a multi-string classifier, 3 shooting line/box positions - first string is 4 targets, 2 on each, reload 2 on each - first 8 shots are fine, reload is fine, on the second set of 8 shots, partway through, shooter notices gun is acting up - shooter manages to finish string - Shooter wants to check/cycle the gun, so he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion - The above step is repeated - then the shooter loads a mag, racks the slide and moves to string 2 location - at some point, during the above the RO gives a "reload if necessary and holster" command in preparation for moving to the next shooting location The issue is the RO felt that the above step was *reloading with finger in the trigger* and wanted to DQ the shooter. It was a level 1 match and there was enough question about the events that it was agreed to allow the shooter to continue. I'm sure this is documented, but when is unloading, loading, reloading *complete*. And here's why I say this.... All the above happened, during the COF, if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during. BUT How many of you have had a shooter at the end of shooting, before the IYAFUSC command, drop a mag, rack the slide and pull the trigger? Was his finger in the trigger guard on an unload during the COF? This can't be as difficult as I'm making it out, and there must be an easy answer... It has to have happened a million times, but it sure caused a bunch of us to puzzle at a match this weekend... So steer away oh great collective mass of DRL's Alan Edited March 7, 2012 by Alan Adamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS101 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 At the very least, he/she should have been given the extra shot penalties for the classifier as well as the extra time the shooter took making the extra shots on the 1st string. (I am pretty sure it was a Virgina Count classifier) Was the shooter aiming at the targets when shooting the extra shots? Was the shooter aiming down and hitting within 10 feet of himself (10.4.2) or sending them over the berm (10.4.1)? 10.4.3 covers the person firing during loading, or after If Finished, unload and show clear. 10.5.8 covers shooting while clearing a malfunction and clearly not aiming at targets, and 10.5.9 covers shots during reloading... Without being there, it seems like several f the rules above could have/should have sent the person home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Uhmm nice question. To me (and my limited experience in IPSC), I think it's a finger on trigger during reloading. According to my knowledge, all the operations from removing a mag to insert a new one is considered a Reloading process, so as the shooter pull the trigger during this process, it's a DQ. More, as the shooter NEVER received the "UASC", then the "if clear, hammer down, holster" command, The shooter can't have his finger in TG if he not engaging a target, and as he drop the mag and rack the slide, he can't say he engage a target, he's clearly in a reloading process. So to me it's a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Here is the definition of Reloading from the rulebook. Did this happen? Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. From your description, he dropped the mag, cycled the gun with no mag in it, did not replenish or insert additional ammunition, then when satisfied, took a mag and inserted it. Was his finger where it should not have been when the mag was being inserted? I don't see that from your comments. I don't see cycling the gun if there may be a problem to fall into the reloading cycle. By the comment made above, anytime a shooter drops a mag and cycles/checks the gun - which may include pulling the trigger to see if a trigger spring is broken or there is some other issue, then they should be DQ'd. I do not agree with that. Dropping a mag is dropping a mag. It does not signal the start of the reloading cycle. It can, but does not always. Had a stage where I thought my trigger spring broke. Dropped the mag, cycled the gun and pulled the trigger repeatedly? Should I have been DQ'd? Additionally, is "reload and holster" a range command or a courtesy? Edited March 7, 2012 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 - Shooter wants to check/cycle the gun, so he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion Did shooter tell the RO what he was doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during. It is not, and therein lies the problem. Rulebook defines it quite clearly, just like it defines facing uprange, dropped gun, etc. The rulebook is your friend, do not fear the rulebook. I'm surprised that with that much discussion, someone did not break out the rulebook. Edited March 7, 2012 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) So this is after completion of 1 st. string ( 16 rounds 1 reload) ...and before second string ? Shooter should have talked with RO before "just doing it" if RO OKs it all is well if not shooter would then be DNF for the stage, go to safety area and fix or apply to use a replacement firearm to finish match. As an RO I wouldn't have a problem if the shooter asked between strings to ascertain if his firearm was safe to continue as I don't want an unsafe firearm on my range. (s)he is then unloaded and under an ROs control so the question is can the shooter dryfire facing downrange under the control of an RO ? 8.06 MALFUNCTIONS_In the event of a malfunction, the normal procedure will be for the competitor to rectify the situation, always keeping the muzzle pointing downrange, and carry on with the stage. If he is unable to do so, he will stand fast, lower the handgun safely pointed downrange and signal by raising his free hand. The Range Officer will stop the clock and proceed to examine the handgun. In a Perfect Range : it was the end of the string,before moving to the next shooting box . Shooter asks RO if (s)he can inspect to see what problem is,..in doing so he check/cycle the gun, so (s)he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion) twice,.. the RO then gives a "reload if necessary and holster" command in preparation for moving to the next shooting location and stage commences. Thats my take,.. John Edited March 7, 2012 by Amerflyer48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Additionally, is "reload and holster" a range command or a courtesy? In this instance, it is a range command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 At the very least, he/she should have been given the extra shot penalties for the classifier as well as the extra time the shooter took making the extra shots on the 1st string. (I am pretty sure it was a Virgina Count classifier) Was the shooter aiming at the targets when shooting the extra shots? Was the shooter aiming down and hitting within 10 feet of himself (10.4.2) or sending them over the berm (10.4.1)? 10.4.3 covers the person firing during loading, or after If Finished, unload and show clear. 10.5.8 covers shooting while clearing a malfunction and clearly not aiming at targets, and 10.5.9 covers shots during reloading... Without being there, it seems like several f the rules above could have/should have sent the person home... First of all, there was no extra shot... sorry If I suggested other. The only issue was after he completed the first string, between the 1st and send, while getting ready for the second, he dropped the mag, ejected the round in the chamber and dropped the hammer, then did it again, then put a magazine back in and reloaded and holstered and then walked to the next string start positions. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Here is the definition of Reloading from the rulebook. Did this happen? Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. From your description, he dropped the mag, cycled the gun with no mag in it, did not replenish or insert additional ammunition, then when satisfied, took a mag and inserted it. Was his finger where it should not have been when the mag was being inserted? I don't see that from your comments. I don't see cycling the gun if there may be a problem to fall into the reloading cycle. By the comment made above, anytime a shooter drops a mag and cycles/checks the gun - which may include pulling the trigger to see if a trigger spring is broken or there is some other issue, then they should be DQ'd. I do not agree with that. Dropping a mag is dropping a mag. It does not signal the start of the reloading cycle. It can, but does not always. Had a stage where I thought my trigger spring broke. Dropped the mag, cycled the gun and pulled the trigger repeatedly? Should I have been DQ'd? Additionally, is "reload and holster" a range command or a courtesy? When he inserted the mag, his finger was clear of the trigger guard. "reload and holster" is a courtesy, there is *NO* range command specifically for *between strings* although that is *strongly* recommended by most of the RO class instructors... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Additionally, is "reload and holster" a range command or a courtesy? In this instance, it is a range command. No, it is not an official range command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 - Shooter wants to check/cycle the gun, so he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion Did shooter tell the RO what he was doing? Yes, but not sure that really matters, I find no rules that suggest that needs to take place... obviously a nice thing to do, but not sure it really matters to the question at hand? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during. It is not, and therein lies the problem. Rulebook defines it quite clearly, just like it defines facing uprange, dropped gun, etc. The rulebook is your friend, do not fear the rulebook. I'm surprised that with that much discussion, someone did not break out the rulebook. Oh, you can be assured the rule book was out... but here's the rub... The rules says (paraphasing as I'm too lazy to go find it). that at no time during "load, unload or reload" can the finger be in (on) the trigger (guard)... The phrase that you quote is around *reloading*, but to do a reload, you have to "do all three". Alan ps. ok, I went and found it... 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5). Alan Edited March 7, 2012 by Alan Adamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 "reload and holster" is a courtesy, there is *NO* range command specifically for *between strings* although that is *strongly* recommended by most of the RO class instructors... Alan Exactly, although I would not be making that command to an international shooter who may not speak English as they understand only the official range commands, and those are what we should be using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during. It is not, and therein lies the problem. Rulebook defines it quite clearly, just like it defines facing uprange, dropped gun, etc. The rulebook is your friend, do not fear the rulebook. I'm surprised that with that much discussion, someone did not break out the rulebook. Oh, you can be assured the rule book was out... but here's the rub... The rules says (paraphasing as I'm too lazy to go find it). that at no time during "load, unload or reload" can the finger be in (on) the trigger (guard)... The phrase that you quote is around *reloading*, but to do a reload, you have to "do all three". Alan ps. ok, I went and found it... 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5). Alan So the question is really, is pulling the trigger on a known empty chamber, if sandwiched on one side by an unload - where the finger was clear, and a load - where the finger was clear - part of reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Oh, you can be assured the rule book was out... but here's the rub... The rules says (paraphasing as I'm too lazy to go find it). that at no time during "load, unload or reload" can the finger be in (on) the trigger (guard)... The phrase that you quote is around *reloading*, but to do a reload, you have to "do all three". Alan ps. ok, I went and found it... 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5). Alan Okay, now was his finger in the trigger guard for any of those? Was it in when loading? Was it in when unloading, was it it when reloading? If not, then you can't dq him for a finger in the trigger guard. Reloading is defined. Was he in the act of reloading according to the definition? Edited March 7, 2012 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I would have been happier if he had told me he had a problem and wanted to go to the safety area to check his gun. But he was under control of the RO, the action was performed safely and the shooter could have proclaimed ooops that he forgot it was multiple string and cleared his gun as he normally would have. I don't like the idea of walking between shooting positions with a hot gun unless it is in my hand. I would hate to DQ for dropping his gun after I told him to reload and holster because 8.2.5 states "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun gun after the start signal. However a competitor "may" reholster provided this is done safely..." However it is my felling that 'may' is replaced with 'will' because it is at the RO's command. As for this question: How many of you have had a shooter at the end of shooting, before the IYAFUSC command, drop a mag, rack the slide and pull the trigger? After about the 2nd or 3rd day of the Nationals, most of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 if *reload is defined* as the period of time when the mag is dropped, and and new mag is inserted, then technically his finger was in the trigger during. It is not, and therein lies the problem. Rulebook defines it quite clearly, just like it defines facing uprange, dropped gun, etc. The rulebook is your friend, do not fear the rulebook. I'm surprised that with that much discussion, someone did not break out the rulebook. Oh, you can be assured the rule book was out... but here's the rub... The rules says (paraphasing as I'm too lazy to go find it). that at no time during "load, unload or reload" can the finger be in (on) the trigger (guard)... The phrase that you quote is around *reloading*, but to do a reload, you have to "do all three". Alan ps. ok, I went and found it... 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5). Alan So the question is really, is pulling the trigger on a known empty chamber, if sandwiched on one side by an unload - where the finger was clear, and a load - where the finger was clear - part of reloading. I would say 'no'. Comparing it to the 'make ready' command, I draw my gun, turn on the dot, rack the slide (empty mag well & chamber), take a sight picture, press the trigger (dry fire), then insert a loaded mag, rack the slide (finger out of trigger guard) and holster. Is this a DQ doing it this way?...No. Look at the intent of the shooter instead of literally going by the letter of the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 - Shooter wants to check/cycle the gun, so he drops the mag, racks the slide, pulls the trigger <- this process is the issue of discussion Did shooter tell the RO what he was doing? Yes, but not sure that really matters, I find no rules that suggest that needs to take place... obviously a nice thing to do, but not sure it really matters to the question at hand? Alan Not required, but a sure-fire way to avoid misunderstandings. FWIW, the definition of reloading has already been posted. Since he was not actively replenishing or inserting ammo, he wasn't reloading. No DQ, no penalty. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 So the question is really, is pulling the trigger on a known empty chamber, if sandwiched on one side by an unload - where the finger was clear, and a load - where the finger was clear - part of reloading. The relevant definition: Reloading . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. So - he wasn't replenishing or inserting ammo when he touched the trigger, was he? BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Isn't amazing how often the English language fails us? As he was not in the process of loading - defined as "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm", reloading - defined as "The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm" or unloading - defined as "The removal of ammunition from a firearm" he did not violate rule 8.4.1. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Isn't amazing how often the English language fails us? As he was not in the process of loading - defined as "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm", reloading - defined as "The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm" or unloading - defined as "The removal of ammunition from a firearm" he did not violate rule 8.4.1. Chris Chris.... Thanks, finally a *clear* answer to this topic.... Everyone else kept stepping around it and I couldn't seem to steer the topic correctly, but you just hit the nail on the head... Thanks! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technetium-99m Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I personally feel anyone looking to DQ the shooter for the above actions is trying to use the rulebook well outside of its purpose of providing a framework for a safe equitable match. Just my opinion, others may feel differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 On a slightly different note on a multiple string stage I like to use the range comand Make Ready between strings it keeps it consistent with every other string in a match and puts the shooter back into a situation covered in the rule book. also if you dont like moving with a loaded gun in your holster I see no reason not to move to your next starting location with your gun in you hand before Making Ready for your next string. I would tell the RO before I did it but I cant think of a ruel that would stop you from doing it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 No reason why you can't holster and keep your hand on it while moving to the next location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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