Load, unload, Reload - finger on trigger Q

[Skydiver]

No reason why you can't holster and keep your hand on it while moving to the next location.

[sorry for extending the thread drift.]

And if the gun pops out of the holster while you are moving to the next location, are you safe from DQ because you are handling a handgun under the supervision of an RO during the CoF?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Skydiver

[sperman]

10.5.3 starts with "At any time during a course of fire." It doesn't matter if you are under the supervision of the RO or not (aren't you always under the supervision of the RO during a course of fire?) Dropping the gun after "Make Ready and before "Range is clear" = DQ regardless of the circumstances.

[Skydiver]

10.5.3 starts with "At any time during a course of fire." It doesn't matter if you are under the supervision of the RO or not (aren't you always under the supervision of the RO during a course of fire?) Dropping the gun after "Make Ready and before "Range is clear" = DQ regardless of the circumstances.

My fault. I didn't describe the scenario clearly.

In a VC stage, the shooter finishes shooting string 1 in Box A. He opts to unload and holster before moving to Box B. The RO has the shooter unload and holster. While moving from Box A to Box B with his hand around the grip of his gun, the gun pops out of the shooter's Ghostholster. The gun was not dropped. It was always in the shooter's control -- unless you count the gun popping out of the holster as evidence that the gun wasn't in the shooter's control.

[Again, my apologies for the thread drift.]

[ima45dv8]

I was the RM at this match and one of the ROs involved approached me after the fact to get my opinion. After hearing the chain of events, I said I would not have supported a DQ under these circumstances.

Standards are a different kettle of fish. It's a long, protracted collection of actions and conversations that in many ways does not clearly fit the traditional definitions of a Course of Fire. Where it does align with those definitions is that there is a single "Make Ready" command that starts the ball rolling, and at a point far in the future, a single "Range is Clear" declaration that stops it. As the shooter was still within that CoF, and fully allowed to handle his gun if done safely (and the RO said he certainly did do that), I couldn't see and still can't see any reason to end his day. Interim commands are suggested in the rulebook, but are far from standardized.

Good judgment in these situations is a valuable tool for measuring the shooter's actions. While this RO was initially a bit concerned by the shooter's actions, discussion with his squad mates (also reasonable people of good judgment) resulting in the shooter continuing the match.

All's well that ends well.

[Schutzenmeister]

10.5.3 starts with "At any time during a course of fire." It doesn't matter if you are under the supervision of the RO or not (aren't you always under the supervision of the RO during a course of fire?) Dropping the gun after "Make Ready and before "Range is clear" = DQ regardless of the circumstances.

My fault. I didn't describe the scenario clearly.

In a VC stage, the shooter finishes shooting string 1 in Box A. He opts to unload and holster before moving to Box B. The RO has the shooter unload and holster. While moving from Box A to Box B with his hand around the grip of his gun, the gun pops out of the shooter's Ghostholster. The gun was not dropped. It was always in the shooter's control -- unless you count the gun popping out of the holster as evidence that the gun wasn't in the shooter's control.

[Again, my apologies for the thread drift.]

By strict definition, and by DNROI intrepretation (forgive me for not taking the time to look it up and fully quote, but trust me here!), assuming the trigger was exposed to the point where the shooter could have had access to it, what you just described IS a dropped gun during a CoF. Hence, by 10.5.3 a DQ is in order. Yeah ... Sounds harsh. But that is the rule.

[Steven Cline]

I personally feel anyone looking to DQ the shooter for the above actions is trying to use the rulebook well outside of its purpose of providing a framework for a safe equitable match. Just my opinion, others may feel differently.

Count me on this side of the discussion. When the rules fail us- use your common sense. The shooter wasn't being unsafe.

[aztecdriver]

I personally feel anyone looking to DQ the shooter for the above actions is trying to use the rulebook well outside of its purpose of providing a framework for a safe equitable match. Just my opinion, others may feel differently.

Count me on this side of the discussion. When the rules fail us- use your common sense. The shooter wasn't being unsafe.

^^ THIS. While I might have really encouraged the shooter to go ahead and step back to the safe area and do what he needed to - in order to not be rushed - we don't need to be looking to surprise people with this gotcha. I've already made my feelings know about the whole "when does a reloading end and start" thing - so -- myeah...

[twodownzero]

Additionally, is "reload and holster" a range command or a courtesy?

In this instance, it is a range command.

No, it is not an official range command.

Not true.

8.3.6.1 When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may

issue other interim commands on completion of the first string,

in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent

strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may

also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a common

shooting bay or area.

I am familiar with the range commands, but in certain instances, things other than the quotes in chapter 8 are indeed range commands.

If I yell "stop" at you, the command that follows is not going to be "If you are finished..." but rather, "unload and show clear."

The fact that it is not the scripted range command in the book doesn't make that command any less of a range command than if normal circumstances dictated the official range commands.

I do agree that Range Officers should always stick to the range commands.

There are instances where there is a slight amount of leeway though, and multi-string courses of fire are, by necessity, among those situations.

[Nik Habicht]

10.5.3 starts with "At any time during a course of fire." It doesn't matter if you are under the supervision of the RO or not (aren't you always under the supervision of the RO during a course of fire?) Dropping the gun after "Make Ready and before "Range is clear" = DQ regardless of the circumstances.

My fault. I didn't describe the scenario clearly.

In a VC stage, the shooter finishes shooting string 1 in Box A. He opts to unload and holster before moving to Box B. The RO has the shooter unload and holster. While moving from Box A to Box B with his hand around the grip of his gun, the gun pops out of the shooter's Ghostholster. The gun was not dropped. It was always in the shooter's control -- unless you count the gun popping out of the holster as evidence that the gun wasn't in the shooter's control.

[Again, my apologies for the thread drift.]

By strict definition, and by DNROI intrepretation (forgive me for not taking the time to look it up and fully quote, but trust me here!), assuming the trigger was exposed to the point where the shooter could have had access to it, what you just described IS a dropped gun during a CoF. Hence, by 10.5.3 a DQ is in order. Yeah ... Sounds harsh. But that is the rule.

I don't know that I agree Mike. During the stage, even between strings, there's nothing that says I can't move with the gun in my hand, or that I can't draw and re-holster at will.....

If you want to prevent me from doing that, you need to have me unload and call the range clear. Otherwise -- one the Make Ready command has been given, if the gun's in my hand, it's not out of my control....

[Skydiver]

10.5.3 starts with "At any time during a course of fire." It doesn't matter if you are under the supervision of the RO or not (aren't you always under the supervision of the RO during a course of fire?) Dropping the gun after "Make Ready and before "Range is clear" = DQ regardless of the circumstances.

My fault. I didn't describe the scenario clearly.

In a VC stage, the shooter finishes shooting string 1 in Box A. He opts to unload and holster before moving to Box B. The RO has the shooter unload and holster. While moving from Box A to Box B with his hand around the grip of his gun, the gun pops out of the shooter's Ghostholster. The gun was not dropped. It was always in the shooter's control -- unless you count the gun popping out of the holster as evidence that the gun wasn't in the shooter's control.

[Again, my apologies for the thread drift.]

By strict definition, and by DNROI intrepretation (forgive me for not taking the time to look it up and fully quote, but trust me here!), assuming the trigger was exposed to the point where the shooter could have had access to it, what you just described IS a dropped gun during a CoF. Hence, by 10.5.3 a DQ is in order. Yeah ... Sounds harsh. But that is the rule.

I don't know that I agree Mike. During the stage, even between strings, there's nothing that says I can't move with the gun in my hand, or that I can't draw and re-holster at will.....

If you want to prevent me from doing that, you need to have me unload and call the range clear. Otherwise -- one the Make Ready command has been given, if the gun's in my hand, it's not out of my control....

Nik has hit the nail on the head.

I may get a little nervous if the shooter draws and starts taking sight pictures and/or racks the the slide while we are walking from Box A to Box B, but as far as I'm concerned it's legal as long as he doesn't break the 180 or sweep himself.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Skydiver

[Schutzenmeister]

I don't know that I agree Mike. During the stage, even between strings, there's nothing that says I can't move with the gun in my hand, or that I can't draw and re-holster at will.....

If you want to prevent me from doing that, you need to have me unload and call the range clear. Otherwise -- one the Make Ready command has been given, if the gun's in my hand, it's not out of my control....

OK Nik ... On a close re-read of the ruling, you may have a point and I may be stretching it a little. To be clear:

Trapping a handgun outside the course of fire

Created: 9/14/11

Updated: 9/18/11

Effective: 9/17/10

Rule Number: 10.5.14 App 3

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling Authority: Board of Directors

Status: Released

Question:

If my handgun becomes dislodged outside the course of fire, can I trap it so it does not fall to the ground without being disqualified?

Answer:

If a competitor's gun is partially dislodged from his holster while outside a COF, and the competitor "traps" the gun in the holster (trigger not exposed), he may do so without penalty. The competitor should immediately proceed to a safety area and address any necessary equipment issues. If the competitor's gun has left the holster (trigger is exposed), the gun must be treated as dropped. Even if the competitor is able to "trap" the gun before it falls to the ground, he must safely and securely lower the gun to the ground in accordance with 10.5.3.1 and call for an RO to safely retrieve it as per 10.5.14. Note that drawing and/or handling a firearm outside a safety area remain prohibited actions subject to DQ per 10.5.1

As I just noted, on re-reading this rule, it applies to an event OUTSIDE a CoF. I note, however, with interest, the emphasized portion. What John and the BoD were clearly getting at here is the point at which the gun is considered "dropped."

In the case being described, the shooter did not "draw" the gun or otherwise intentionally remove it from the holster. It was either knocked out, or by some other possible defect simply came out of the holster. Again, and let me emphasize that while the post did not specify the trigger was exposed, I am making that assumption here for the purposes of discussion.

This would be, I think, by definition a "dropped" firearm. i.e., It came out of the holster, the trigger was exposed, and (at least briefly) was not under the control of the shooter. Also, by definition, it occurred during a CoF. Hence, I do not think it a stretch that 10.5.3 can apply.

I would be far more comfortable making the call (either way) if I had actually SEEN it happen. This one seems to be one of those "You really needed to be there and see it happen" type events.

Nevertheless, one of the purposes of this forum is to bring up and discuss fine points in the rules. While my analysis above may not be the popular one here, I ask only that folks consider the logic of how I arrived at it.

[ima45dv8]

In the case being described, the shooter did not "draw" the gun or otherwise intentionally remove it from the holster. It was either knocked out, or by some other possible defect simply came out of the holster.

For claity's sake, let's remember that the shooter in the case described by the OP did not drop his gun in any way. It wasn't knocked out of his holster or his hand.

I think maybe you are now referring to one of Skydiver's infamous Team What-If competitors.

[Skydiver]

In the case being described, the shooter did not "draw" the gun or otherwise intentionally remove it from the holster. It was either knocked out, or by some other possible defect simply came out of the holster.

For claity's sake, let's remember that the shooter in the case described by the OP did not drop his gun in any way. It wasn't knocked out of his holster or his hand.

I think maybe you are now referring to one of Skydiver's infamous Team What-If competitors.

I'll have team shirts printed up.

Mark makes a very good point about the gun not being dropped. I hope I was clear that the shooter had a full grip on the gun the whole time in this "what-if" scenario.

[Nik Habicht]

Mike,

I'm always happy to hear what you think -- and occasionally play devil's advocate to get you to speak a little more.....

And I'd need to have seen it too -- to really feel comfortable with either call. If the gun was in the competitor's hand the whole time -- bikini holster popped off the gun situation -- I probably wouldn't DQ for a dropped gun. I'd be watching hard for a 180 break though..... :ph34r: