I failed as RO

[BurdDawg69]

Well Ill start off by saying that Im new to posting, and new to the sport of USPSA. Ive been shooting this sport for about 2-3 months now and have fallen in love with it. Today was a "learning experience". It all started when I decided to sign up on a blank squad page today ,as all the other squads I normally shoot with were full. I ended up being signed on with 5 other shooters that were all either out of towners and/or new shooters (1-2 matchs under their belts). I am a member of my club and since I was the only member on the squad I was in charge of ROing.Im new to it but I have ran alot of other shooters without incident. So now Ill explain the 5 DQs that I should have issued but didnt, and now kinda regret.

First DQ: Shooter had to move forward shoot an array of steel and paper, then move back a few feet as he was moving to his left. He broke the 180 with a reload, I issued the "180" warning as he was still a new shooter and this was only stage 2. I pulled Him aside afterwards and explaind the safety hazards and that he really needs to be more aware.

Second DQ: Same as first DQ but with a differnt new shooter.

Third DQ: Same as the first 2 but this was an experienced shooter who appologized as he did it and was aware he made a mistake, so I let him slide with a warning.

Fourth DQ: Same experience (OPEN) shooter from the thrird 180 but this time while at the table loading mags he drew his(unloaded) gun to show me his comp... I told him to put it away and that he should know better

Fifth DQ: Same new shooter from the first 180 Offense ,was backing around a wall while moving to his right and pointed the gun at about 200+ degrees towards the crowd watching. (not directly at them but really close). By the time I realized how bad the offense was he had finished the stage and I didnt have time to stop him. I told him that if it happened again he WOULD be DQed no questions asked...But this was the last stage of the day so I let it go.

So to finish I feel that a failed as a new RO because I was to "scared" or nervous to DQ someone for the first time, and I didnt know these shooters that well. Im going to be more attentive from now on and wont be so passive next time. Thanks for listening to me yammer on...

Edited March 5, 2012 by BurdDawg69

[Maksim]

Well Ill start off by saying that Im new to posting, and new to the sport of USPSA. Ive been shooting this sport for about 2-3 months now and have fallen in love with it. Today was a "learning experience". It all started when I decided to sign up on a blank squad page today ,as all the other squads I normally shoot with were full. I ended up being signed on with 5 other shooters that were all either out of towners and/or new shooters (1-2 matchs under their belts). I am a member of my club and since I was the only member on the squad I was in charge of ROing.Im new to it but I have ran alot of other shooters without incident. So now Ill explain the 5 DQs that I should have issued but didnt, and now kinda regret.

First DQ: Shooter had to move forward shoot an array of steel and paper, then move back a few feet as he was moving to his left. He broke the 180 with a reload, I issued the "180" warning as he was still a new shooter and this was only stage 2. I pulled Him aside afterwards and explaind the safety hazards and that he really needs to be more aware.

Second DQ: Same as first DQ but with a differnt new shooter.

Third DQ: Same as the first 2 but this was an experienced shooter who appologized as he did it and was aware he made a mistake, so I let him slide with a warning.

Fourth DQ: Same experience (OPEN) shooter from the thrird 180 but this time while at the table loading mags he drew his(unloaded) gun to show me his comp... I told him to put it away and that he should know better

Fifth DQ: Same new shooter from the first 180 Offense ,was backing around a wall while moving to his right and pointed the gun at about 200+ degrees towards the crowd watching. (not directly at them but really close). By the time I realized how bad the offense was he had finished the stage and I didnt have time to stop him. I told him that if it happened again he WOULD be DQed no questions asked...But this was the last stage of the day so I let it go.

So to finish I feel that a failed as a new RO because I was to "scared" or nervous to DQ someone for the first time, and I didnt know these shooters that well. Im going to be more attentive from now on and wont be so passive next time. Thanks for listening to me yammer on...

You don't DQ people, they DQ themselves, you are just the one informing them, not even that. It is stop, unload show clear, hammer down, holster. Call Range Master.

[mlmiller1]

Ok, let's start off with this important thought. YOU are not the person that DQ's the shooter. The shooter DQ's themselves. Your job is to point it out to them & stop them to prevent it from escalating or happening again. It needs to be a learning experience for all, both the shooter & you. You are the guy that is put there to make sure safety is maintained under all circumstances & if it is not maintained, action needs to be taken.

Having said that, it is hard to call & enforce a DQ on a shooter or a friend but it must be done when they have DQ'd. You have been put in a bad position here since you are new relatively & you have not had proper training in r.o.ing.

So here you are, you realize your mistakes. Now that it is past, what are you going to do with this knowledge? Use it to become a better r.o. or ?????? May I suggest you try to get to one of the uspsa r.o. classes?

Let me make one comment about the fifth situation. If you were not in the proper position to know immediately that shooter had broken the 180, perhaps you should rethink where you were in the stage & make a better choice next time. I'll step out here & say you could not issue the DQ after he finished shooting. If you didn't stop him when & where it happened or very close to it, you can't do it later in the stage after you realize he broke it.

I will fess up here & say the position thing happened to me once, at least. I was r.o.ing the safest shooter in our section. It was late in the day, I was tired so I took a little shortcut across the stage, saving me four steps max. The safest shooter in our section got his gun tangled up in a wall & broke the 180 dramatically but I was out of position. I know he broke it, I had witnesses he broke it but I didn't see it from a position where I could call it. I had to let it go. I took a GENUINE butt chewing from the guy that he pointed his muzzle at & I deserved it, too but I could NOT call it since I was on the wrong side of the shooter. If you don't see it, you can't call it even if you know it happened. All because I took a shortcut trusting no mistake would be made. I will NOT do that again. The potential for an accident is too great. My lesson is NO shortcuts no matter who is shooting.

Good luck, learn from this, don't let it happen again.

MLM

[mlmiller1]

Wow, Maksim types faster than I do!!!!

[BurdDawg69]

thanks for the tips. I was in a position that i CLEARLY saw the 200+ break but i was i guess" in shock" that I didnt respond fast enough. the stage only had 4 shots left on paper after he did it and it was over before i knew it...I am looking into the Ro classes.

[Maksim]

thanks for the tips. I was in a position that i CLEARLY saw the 200+ break but i was i guess" in shock" that I didnt respond fast enough. the stage only had 4 shots left on paper after he did it and it was over before i knew it...I am looking into the Ro classes.

if you saw it, it does not matter if he finished shooting or not, stop, there, call Range Master.

the problem is, you are not doing these shooters a favor by letting them go, and a warning.

the worst is when you give a shooter a warning, and instead of paying attention to you, all they care about is how they shot the stage. Safety is the most important part and what makes USPSA what it is. No one goes home to think about the warning you gave them, they go home wondering about how they shot. If someone was breaking a safety rule, there is no place for it, especially people who should know it. Only way people will focus on safety is by going home and focusing on why they did not finish the match, and not getting their scores.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Maksim

[Sarge]

You should have never been given the responsibility of ROing in the first place. The MD should have known better. I can't join the crowd in saying shooter's DQ themselves, yadda yadda after reading that you had a shooter break the 180 and sweep the other shooters.

Get the training you need before letting this happen again. I would hate to be reading a thread about somebody getting shot because an untrained RO let something terrible happen.

I firmly believe that no matter how "local" a match is there should always be a competent, certified RO running the squad.

Sorry if this goes against the grain but it's just my 2 cents.

[twodownzero]

If it makes you feel any better, I had to DQ a shooter today, and I probably feel worse than if I'd let him slide. Fortunately, he was cool about it, but I still felt like an ass for having to DQ a guy who came out in 17 degree weather to shoot with us.

Then again, if he didn't want to go home, he shouldn't have swept himself, but it seems like I should have yelled at him before he did it. That's why I'm kicking myself.

Edited March 5, 2012 by twodownzero

[BurdDawg69]

the only thing that bothered me is that I wasnt confident enought yet to issue the DQ. I have talked to my club president and we are looking into getting more people including me into a R.O. class so that next time we have a better coverage of certified ROs. Like sarge said the worst thing would be having to explain to someones family that a loved one got hurt becasue I didnt do my job as RO properly. I learned today that the guy /gal might be upset with me for DQing them, but their families would be more upset if I didnt DQ them and something tragic happened. either to the shooter or soemone else. Mistakes dont just affect the shooter It affects everyone involved..DQs arent personal!!! Im learning.

[Flatland Shooter]

For a single squad to have five DQ's in one match, something severe is wrong. Maybe there were some stages poorly designed that contributed.

If I was on this squad and witnessed shooters that were that unsafe, I would have packed it up and headed home long before you got to the third or fourth unsafe action.

First, just like shooting, RO'ing is a skill developed with time and experience. The fact you were willing to RO indicates you want to help the sport grow.

Second, newbie shooters should never be run by a newbie RO. Do not let yourself get put into that position again until you have the experience to handle it.

Just because the first DQ slipped by, that is no excuse for the second, third, fourth and fifth to get a pass. You let a couple slide because they were new shooters. You let one or two experienced shooters also slide. You were not acting as an RO. You were simply running the timer.

The experienced shooters that should have been DQ's know the rules and should have had enough class to DQ themselves. It would have been the honorable thing to do and would have shown the newbies that we take safety seriously.

Before you volunteer or get roped into RO'ing again, make sure you are willing and able to do the job. If not, decline. Get some experience. Request you get placed in a squad with experienced shooters and when you RO, make sure the scorekeeper is a second set of eyes.

It don't feel good to DQ a shooter. Sometimes the RO will feel worse than the shooter. But that's part of the job.

You got lucky and no one was hurt. Don't rely on luck the next time.

Bill

[BurdDawg69]

I would like to clear a couple things up. I was not in any way shape or form forced or roped or made to be the RO. I took charge as I thought I was experienced enough to run the squad. But I didnt know that I had 3 new shooters on my squad till after the first stage. Hind sight is 20/20, i Know now that there is alot more to ROing a squad that I hadnt experienced until today. As for the stages, they were fine, My squad was the only group that any of the shooters hade any saftey issues.

[Jadeslade]

Thanks for posting. I think that is called "man up" in the vernacular. I don't RO at matches in my area because there are always a bunch of guys who love being RO's who are firearms instructors and whatnot. I do score and act as 2nd RO a lot because a lot of people pretend not to know how to run a Palm Pilot. However, I take that second RO job seriously and always check position, safety of crowd, and I often watch the gun-because when there is a gun out I always am aware of the gun. There is an RO class. Just like medical school or police academy,however, it just means that you have been instructed in the basics. Some seasoning is in order to be let loose on the public. One of the most difficult things in being an RO is position-where are you going to be-is there an RO "trap", etc.-this is covered in the RO classes, but until you have been trapped, you don't really get it. Communication is key here-especially at local matches-"how are you going here", etc. At larger matches this is not usually a problem, unless the stage has not been shot by an RO squad the day before or something. If you go to an area match an look at a stage at noon and think that's it-you may be surprised Saturday morning with some target changes, some new fault lines, etc. But I think the real issue in being an RO is a decision you have to make to yourself before you even get to the range, "am I going to be able to think clearly and make a decision without second guessing myself", when presented with the above situation. Just taking an RO class isn't enough, you have to be comfortable in the role. Sounds like you got years of experience in one day and you will be a fine RO. BB King told me once "you have to be bad on stage, before you can be good". Thanks again for posting. DVC

[mildot1]

Ok, let's start off with this important thought. YOU are not the person that DQ's the shooter. The shooter DQ's themselves. Your job is to point it out to them & stop them to prevent it from escalating or happening again. It needs to be a learning experience for all, both the shooter & you. You are the guy that is put there to make sure safety is maintained under all circumstances & if it is not maintained, action needs to be taken.

Having said that, it is hard to call & enforce a DQ on a shooter or a friend but it must be done when they have DQ'd. You have been put in a bad position here since you are new relatively & you have not had proper training in r.o.ing.

So here you are, you realize your mistakes. Now that it is past, what are you going to do with this knowledge? Use it to become a better r.o. or ?????? May I suggest you try to get to one of the uspsa r.o. classes?

Let me make one comment about the fifth situation. If you were not in the proper position to know immediately that shooter had broken the 180, perhaps you should rethink where you were in the stage & make a better choice next time. I'll step out here & say you could not issue the DQ after he finished shooting. If you didn't stop him when & where it happened or very close to it, you can't do it later in the stage after you realize he broke it.

I will fess up here & say the position thing happened to me once, at least. I was r.o.ing the safest shooter in our section. It was late in the day, I was tired so I took a little shortcut across the stage, saving me four steps max. The safest shooter in our section got his gun tangled up in a wall & broke the 180 dramatically but I was out of position. I know he broke it, I had witnesses he broke it but I didn't see it from a position where I could call it. I had to let it go. I took a GENUINE butt chewing from the guy that he pointed his muzzle at & I deserved it, too but I could NOT call it since I was on the wrong side of the shooter. If you don't see it, you can't call it even if you know it happened. All because I took a shortcut trusting no mistake would be made. I will NOT do that again. The potential for an accident is too great. My lesson is NO shortcuts no matter who is shooting.

Good luck, learn from this, don't let it happen again.

MLM

Not trying to be argumentative but the RO can issue a DQ anytime during the course of fire.

Mildot

[mildot1]

You should have never been given the responsibility of ROing in the first place. The MD should have known better. I can't join the crowd in saying shooter's DQ themselves, yadda yadda after reading that you had a shooter break the 180 and sweep the other shooters.

Get the training you need before letting this happen again. I would hate to be reading a thread about somebody getting shot because an untrained RO let something terrible happen.

I firmly believe that no matter how "local" a match is there should always be a competent, certified RO running the squad.

Sorry if this goes against the grain but it's just my 2 cents.

Well I disagree with ya there. My 2 cents is shooters do DQ themselves, they are totally responsible for completing the stage within the requirements of the rulebook. I think what the original post was trying to convey is that the RO should not feel guilty in informing the shooter that they have committed a DQ'able offense. They may feel bad about having to DQ a shooter but it is in no way the RO's fault.

[SteveU]

1) 5 shooters in a squad break 180 .. could all have been individual problems, but also needs to be evaluated at the stage design level

2) It's easy to KNOW what to do. DOING it requires confidence. Experience and RO training provide it. Though you thought you were experienced enough to do it (and likely are, when everything's going well) you obviously weren't (not faulting you) and someone else who IS more experienced should have recognized it and either a) not let you take a squad or b ) (and more prevalent in our club) had a more experienced shooter run with you and "help" you run the squad and back up your calls.

So now you know. Glad no one got hurt, and you learned and posted a good lesson for all.

Now go sign up for a RO course, and keep shooting!

Edited March 5, 2012 by Steve Umansky

[SteveU]

You should have never been given the responsibility of ROing in the first place. The MD should have known better. I can't join the crowd in saying shooter's DQ themselves, yadda yadda after reading that you had a shooter break the 180 and sweep the other shooters.

Get the training you need before letting this happen again. I would hate to be reading a thread about somebody getting shot because an untrained RO let something terrible happen.

I firmly believe that no matter how "local" a match is there should always be a competent, certified RO running the squad.

Sorry if this goes against the grain but it's just my 2 cents.

Well I disagree with ya there. My 2 cents is shooters do DQ themselves, they are totally responsible for completing the stage within the requirements of the rulebook. I think what the original post was trying to convey is that the RO should not feel guilty in informing the shooter that they have committed a DQ'able offense. They may feel bad about having to DQ a shooter but it is in no way the RO's fault.

Maybe the first DQ wasn't his fault, but would the other ones have happened if he sent the first guy home?

[bbbean]

1) 5 shooters in a squad break 180 .. could all have been individual problems, but also needs to be evaluated at the stage design level

This raises a red flag to me, too. I think there was either a major problem with the stage, or the OP was perhaps mistaken about muzzle angle

BB

[sfchorn]

First, thanks for stepping up and being willing to RO. Lots of folks won't do that for multiple reasons:

1. They feel it detracts from their shooting performance

2. They don't want the responsibility

3. They don't want to be the "bad guy"

4. They don't want to take the time to know the rule book well enough

5. It's just not in their personality makeup

Not a slam against those who don't RO. It takes hard work and experience to become a good RO. I still learn something every time I attend a match, and am constantly trying to review my performance to see how I can get better.

I wish I could say I've never been surprised by a competitor's actions. Funny thing is, it isn't the new shooters who would catch me by surprise. It's the guys I trust. A slip on loose gravel or getting the gun tied up in a wall can happen to anyone. I've learned never to relax and let my attention wander. I also wish I've never been out of position to make a call. I was sure one of our GMs broke the 90 MI by getting tied up in a wall, but I was directly behind him and could not see the muzzle. I know in my mind he broke it, but I couldn't call it. I was out of position. Instead of watching what was going on at that exact moment, I was anticipating him tearing laterally down the course at warp 10. I was thinking about what was coming up next, not what was going on now. Lesson learned.

Continue to observe some of the better ROs in your area. Have them observe you, and give you an honest critique afterwards. Find an RO course near you, and attend. Then, continue to gain experience. It is important to remember that while our sport is not inherently dangerous, it is inherently unforgiving of mistakes. An RO's first and foremost job is safety. That can never be a compromise.

While a reshoot sucks for everyone, I'd rather err on the side of safety and stop the competitor if things get sideways. That gives everyone time to think through things clearly. I can always award a reshoot. I can never unfire a shot.

While issuing a DQ does get easier with experience, it never gets to be fun. Nor should it. But it is at times necessary.

Keep at it!

[Intel6]

In the past, the clubs I have shot at have asked who the new(er) shooters were at the match brief and made sure they were spread out on squads with lots of experience on it. Letting more than a few new(er) shooters pile up on an open squad should not have happened like it did in this case IMHO. Sometimes you need to sacrafice shooting with your buddies so you can help out the new shooters in this sport.

I see a need to re-look your overall match squadding proceedures to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Neal in AZ

[Joe4d]

good job stepping to the plate, but the failure is the Match director. They set u up for failure big time. You didnt fail as an RO as your not an RO, no training or experience to fall back on, and then stuck with a whole squad of new shooters ? Your MD really shoot have his dog tags stamped "No Dessert".

Actually all in all this was pretty sorry of the other experienced shooters there and the MD to even put you in that situation.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Joe4d

[chevyoneton]

For a single squad to have five DQ's in one match, something severe is wrong. Maybe there were some stages poorly designed that contributed.

That was my thoughts, or else the RO is extremely observant!

[BurdDawg69]

like I said before, the stage designs had nothing to do with it. No other squad had any issues with the saftey of the stages. The "new" shooters that were with me didnt consider themselves "new" because they had shot one or two matches before. So when the MD asked at the safety meeting if their were any new shooters none of them raised their hands. Someone did ask if this one guy was new as no one had seen him before but his buddy(the buddy was the one that drew his gun at the loading table) said that he wasnt new and that he would look after him. Everyone thought that the experienced shooter was going to help with the "new" shooters but instead he made most of the mistakes himself, therefore setting a bad example for the others...thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions, my Club President(MD) and I are setting up an R.O. class. So far we have a good number of memebers that are interested in taking the class. He has assured me that this will NEVER happen again and that he appologized for not noticing the bad situation earlier. It was a learning experience for everyone. And again I wasnt forced into,or put into this situation by anyone other than myself.

[lumpygravy]

...

my Club President(MD) and I are setting up an R.O. class. So far we have a good number of memebers that are interested in taking the class. He has assured me that this will NEVER happen again and that he appologized for not noticing the bad situation earlier. It was a learning experience for everyone. And again I wasnt forced into,or put into this situation by anyone other than myself.

I think this is the best possible outcome for you experience. RO'ing like shooting takes education and practice. The same can be said for match administration.

True, safety violations are never acceptable and maybe you should have DQ'd the first guy. From all that I've read in this thread, it seems that at least several things occurred that caused the situation. Not all of those things were in your control or that of the MD. Regardless of the circumstances, first off, I think you should be commended for stepping up to take the responsibility on that match day. Do not let one bad day discourage you from continuing to participate and volunteer for the sport. Fortunately no one was hurt and there were no ADs.

Like your club, my home club actively asks if new shooters are present and makes every attempt to ensure they are squadded with a "squad mom". They even go as far as having a few lines on each squadding signup sheet dedicated for the newbies so they can identify themseleves to the match administration at sign up. Now this only helps if a newbie actually self-identifies which was not your case.

If I were in your place, I would have asked the MD for assistance before the shooting got underway, not because you knew you had 5 newbies (because you didn't), but because you didn't personally know these 5 people AND you yourself are relatively new to the sport. My guess is that the MD would have pulled a few more experienced folks from another squad or two to balance the load. You would still have been able to RO, but under the watchful eye of someone with experience greater than yours.

Yes, this is a volunteer sport and you were doing your part. No one says you have to volunteer all by yourself and if you ask, a good MD will "volunteer" people to help you out.

Edited March 6, 2012 by lumpygravy

[Flatland Shooter]

like I said before, the stage designs had nothing to do with it. No other squad had any issues with the saftey of the stages. The "new" shooters that were with me didnt consider themselves "new" because they had shot one or two matches before. So when the MD asked at the safety meeting if their were any new shooters none of them raised their hands. Someone did ask if this one guy was new as no one had seen him before but his buddy(the buddy was the one that drew his gun at the loading table) said that he wasnt new and that he would look after him. Everyone thought that the experienced shooter was going to help with the "new" shooters but instead he made most of the mistakes himself, therefore setting a bad example for the others...thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions, my Club President(MD) and I are setting up an R.O. class. So far we have a good number of memebers that are interested in taking the class. He has assured me that this will NEVER happen again and that he appologized for not noticing the bad situation earlier. It was a learning experience for everyone. And again I wasnt forced into,or put into this situation by anyone other than myself.

Instead of just waiting for all this to blow over, you have taken the initiative to see that this does not happen again to you or any future squad.

No one was hurt, you and possibly some others have learned a good lesson, and you are working to improve safety at you home club.

Good follow up on your part.

Bill

Edited March 6, 2012 by Flatland Shooter

[mildot1]

You should have never been given the responsibility of ROing in the first place. The MD should have known better. I can't join the crowd in saying shooter's DQ themselves, yadda yadda after reading that you had a shooter break the 180 and sweep the other shooters.

Get the training you need before letting this happen again. I would hate to be reading a thread about somebody getting shot because an untrained RO let something terrible happen.

I firmly believe that no matter how "local" a match is there should always be a competent, certified RO running the squad.

Sorry if this goes against the grain but it's just my 2 cents.

Well I disagree with ya there. My 2 cents is shooters do DQ themselves, they are totally responsible for completing the stage within the requirements of the rulebook. I think what the original post was trying to convey is that the RO should not feel guilty in informing the shooter that they have committed a DQ'able offense. They may feel bad about having to DQ a shooter but it is in no way the RO's fault.

Maybe the first DQ wasn't his fault, but would the other ones have happened if he sent the first guy home?

Who knows? Last year a competitor broke the 180 while engaging a target and was stopped and DQ issued. After the issue was made clear again (was pointed out in stage briefing how far down range you could be and still engage target) the next shooter up repeated the error and recieved DQ. I still stand by the idea that the shooter creates his own DQ, RO just enforces the penalty

Mildot