2012 Adams Arms Ozark 3-Gun Match Information

[pigfish73]

Thanks to Kirk, Misty, and all of the staff for a good match. My sides/stomach still hurt from laughing all weekend with Squad 8. That has to be the most fun I've ever had at any match. Congrats to West and James C for their wins. It's always a pleasure to shoot with y'all.

A big thanks to all of the sponsors!

Are the scores posted anywhere yet?

[dmshozer1]

I can never figure out why people complain that one stage or another is unfair , or shouldn't be in a MAJOR match , WHY ?, EVERYBODY has to shoot it , everybody has the same chance.

Guess I just don't understand

Did you forget about the $250 you paid for a good time?

Whether it's a $25.00 match or $250.00 or an RO it's STILL the same , EVERYBODY shoots the same stages.

? ?

Just like I tell the complainers that race at my track , "The guy that beat you , rode the same track you did , if you want to beat him , maybe you should practice more "

This is not directed at ANYBODY , just a general "I don't understand why " ?

My scores SUCKED , BTW , mag problems with pistol and rifle that never happened before

Because a $250 buy in major match shouldn't have a pure dumb luck make it or break it stage. The guys that smoked it had a great run sure, but I bet none of them could repeat the performance with 10 trys.... When things like the overall winner and division winners are decided on a stage like that, you know it is a problem from a stage designers perspective. Let me put it this way, in my humble opinion, if 70+% of the shooters in the match can't clean an array in a reasonable time every time they shoot it then it doesn't belong in a major match.

Well said!

[Casman]

Thanks to Kirk, Misty, and all of the staff for a good match. My sides/stomach still hurt from laughing all weekend with Squad 8. That has to be the most fun I've ever had at any match. Congrats to West and James C for their wins. It's always a pleasure to shoot with y'all.

A big thanks to all of the sponsors!

Are the scores posted anywhere yet?

So true! Everyone on Squad 8 was so much fun to shoot with, Thanks to everyone on it for one of the most fun matches I have had. Thanks to Kirk, Misty and all the staff for the hard work. Finally but definitely not least Thank you to all the sponsors for another very well supported match!

[assaulter]

This was a great match! I have to agree about stage 7. Shooting it without the platform would have been plenty challenging and most people would have tried to shoot them. I still had a blast. Thanks to all the sponsors, the prize table was incredible. A special thanks to Adams Arms for the sweet rifle!!

P.S.- Where are the scores posted??

[djeffers]

According to an earlier post the scores should be up sometime tonight.

[barrysuperhawk]

Because a $250 buy in major match shouldn't have a pure dumb luck make it or break it stage. The guys that smoked it had a great run sure, but I bet none of them could repeat the performance with 10 trys.... When things like the overall winner and division winners are decided on a stage like that, you know it is a problem from a stage designers perspective. Let me put it this way, in my humble opinion, if 70+% of the shooters in the match can't clean an array in a reasonable time every time they shoot it then it doesn't belong in a major match.

Since I am so good at playing the devil's advocate, here's my opinion on this. 3 gun is not a game for weaklings. It should be hard, because that is where the challenge is. This isn't uspsa where merely having an RO touch your target entitles you to a reshoot. We shoot in bad weather, we shoot rediculusly challenging stages that would make a non-shooter's eyes bug out, and we solve every problem thrown at us. The level of talent at 3 gun matches is ever increasing, so the difficulty should also increase. If it is easy, then it gets boring. If 70% of the shooters clean the stage with a good time, the stage wasn't hard enough. It's these stages that separate out who can really shoot from those of us that haven't practiced enough. If a good shooter requires a stage to be "easy enough" to get a good time, then they aren't that good of a shooter.

I have set up matches with 45# knock down targets at 185 yards, if you were shooting underpowered ammo, guess what? I have taken mini-ipsc cardboard targets painted some green stripes on them and stuck them in tall grass. How about having to drag a 100# dummy, or balance yourself on the side of a roof so you don't fall off while you shoot? Everything is a challenge and shame on the gamers that decided to rattle off 6 quick slugs and take the penalties. Were it my stage, I might have considered assessing penalties for Failure to Engage penalties or maybe procedurals for not engaging them in the correct order, if the shooter obviously wasn't aiming. Maybe something like IDPA's "failure to do right" penalties.

[BigLucky]

Because a $250 buy in major match shouldn't have a pure dumb luck make it or break it stage. The guys that smoked it had a great run sure, but I bet none of them could repeat the performance with 10 trys.... When things like the overall winner and division winners are decided on a stage like that, you know it is a problem from a stage designers perspective. Let me put it this way, in my humble opinion, if 70+% of the shooters in the match can't clean an array in a reasonable time every time they shoot it then it doesn't belong in a major match.

Since I am so good at playing the devil's advocate, here's my opinion on this. 3 gun is not a game for weaklings. It should be hard, because that is where the challenge is. This isn't uspsa where merely having an RO touch your target entitles you to a reshoot. We shoot in bad weather, we shoot rediculusly challenging stages that would make a non-shooter's eyes bug out, and we solve every problem thrown at us. The level of talent at 3 gun matches is ever increasing, so the difficulty should also increase. If it is easy, then it gets boring. If 70% of the shooters clean the stage with a good time, the stage wasn't hard enough. It's these stages that separate out who can really shoot from those of us that haven't practiced enough. If a good shooter requires a stage to be "easy enough" to get a good time, then they aren't that good of a shooter.

I have set up matches with 45# knock down targets at 185 yards, if you were shooting underpowered ammo, guess what? I have taken mini-ipsc cardboard targets painted some green stripes on them and stuck them in tall grass. How about having to drag a 100# dummy, or balance yourself on the side of a roof so you don't fall off while you shoot? Everything is a challenge and shame on the gamers that decided to rattle off 6 quick slugs and take the penalties. Were it my stage, I might have considered assessing penalties for Failure to Engage penalties or maybe procedurals for not engaging them in the correct order, if the shooter obviously wasn't aiming. Maybe something like IDPA's "failure to do right" penalties.

I didn't say a good time, I said a reasonable time.. To me a reasonable time is less than the penalties you will get if you don't hit any of the targets. I bet 70% of the shooters in that match couldn't have hit all 6 of those slug targets in the 60 seconds of penalties they get for not hitting any of them.

You say "shame on the gamers", I call BS on that whole line of thought. There was a correct order you had to engage, but with targets that close at 60 yards there was no way to tell if they were engaged in that order. The whole stage was bad. I am pretty sure if you did any of those other things you mentioned in a major match people would be just as upset. Stump the chump crap like that is great for club matches, which are basically organized practice sessions. Anything that requires luck over skill doesn't belong in a major match, in my humble opinion. 3 Gun isn't an MOA game, and surely not with shotgun slugs that don't shoot with MOA accuracy anyway. I am going to game any stage that I can, that is part of the game. That FTDR BS is why I don't shoot IDPA.

Whatever, I enjoyed 7 of the 8 stages we shot and had fun shooting with the squad of great shooters I was on.

[abn-rgr]

FTDR is one of the reasons most of dont shoot silly games like IDPA. If that crap starts up in outlaw 3 gun, Im hanging up my guns. Its no different than those of us who shot 3 or 4 plates off the star with one hot load. Part of the game. You want people to make a concentrated effort to shoot those small slugs??? make it a 20 second penalty, but dont tell me I failed to do right. Its my money being paid to shoot the match......

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I have set up matches with 45# knock down targets at 185 yards, if you were shooting underpowered ammo, guess what? I have taken mini-ipsc cardboard targets painted some green stripes on them and stuck them in tall grass. . . Were it my stage, I might have considered assessing penalties for Failure to Engage penalties or maybe procedurals for not engaging them in the correct order, if the shooter obviously wasn't aiming. Maybe something like IDPA's "failure to do right" penalties.

Rarely have I heard opinions so squarely opposed to my own. Remind me to never shoot a match you are in charge of.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Half the fun of that stage 7 was trying to decide if I could hit them or not and if I should go for it or just bite the bullet and take the penalties. I even asked what the FTE penalty was and what the procedural penalty was for Shooting them standing with the platform frame as support. Figuring out the best way to shoot any stage is half the fun as is figuring out the best way to game a stage.

I watched an entire squad ahead of ours miss almost every target whether they shot slow or fast then I watched the guy that finished 2nd in TO load an extra 4 rounds in his gun then shoot all 12 rounds before loading more at which time he decided not to waste any more time shooting those extra rounds.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[assaulter]

LOL I shot 18 times, total time 86 seconds and knocked 5 down. It probably would have been about the same ending if I had just blasted a quick six at them. I have to admit, if nothing else, it was satisfying to see those targets get the shit knocked out if them when they were hit!

[specmike]

As a newcomer to 3 gun, I enjoyed gamming stages like stage 7. If I want to not think and just pull the trigger, I will go back to highpower shooting. Isn't the idea of this shooting sport doing what you have to do inside the rules that are set forth to finish with the quickest time?

I had a blast at this match, like most all of the 3 gun matches I have shot.

Great stages, unlike any I have experienced so far!

[Lead-Head]

Lets do Stage 7 again next year, but with some scoring changes:

I think we should have got 10 bonus points for hitting each steel, and 5 bonus for just hitting a car, maybe 2 for a tree, 1 for the ground in front of the target.

This system would have given me about a -25 second time on my run.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Lead-Head

[toothandnail]

Because a $250 buy in major match shouldn't have a pure dumb luck make it or break it stage. The guys that smoked it had a great run sure, but I bet none of them could repeat the performance with 10 trys.... When things like the overall winner and division winners are decided on a stage like that, you know it is a problem from a stage designers perspective. Let me put it this way, in my humble opinion, if 70+% of the shooters in the match can't clean an array in a reasonable time every time they shoot it then it doesn't belong in a major match.

Since I am so good at playing the devil's advocate, here's my opinion on this. 3 gun is not a game for weaklings. It should be hard, because that is where the challenge is. This isn't uspsa where merely having an RO touch your target entitles you to a reshoot. We shoot in bad weather, we shoot rediculusly challenging stages that would make a non-shooter's eyes bug out, and we solve every problem thrown at us. The level of talent at 3 gun matches is ever increasing, so the difficulty should also increase. If it is easy, then it gets boring. If 70% of the shooters clean the stage with a good time, the stage wasn't hard enough. It's these stages that separate out who can really shoot from those of us that haven't practiced enough. If a good shooter requires a stage to be "easy enough" to get a good time, then they aren't that good of a shooter.

I have set up matches with 45# knock down targets at 185 yards, if you were shooting underpowered ammo, guess what? I have taken mini-ipsc cardboard targets painted some green stripes on them and stuck them in tall grass. How about having to drag a 100# dummy, or balance yourself on the side of a roof so you don't fall off while you shoot? Everything is a challenge and shame on the gamers that decided to rattle off 6 quick slugs and take the penalties. Were it my stage, I might have considered assessing penalties for Failure to Engage penalties or maybe procedurals for not engaging them in the correct order, if the shooter obviously wasn't aiming. Maybe something like IDPA's "failure to do right" penalties.

I agree 100% with this.

[blu46and2]

We won't have to worry about that poor tree, or getting a bonus for hitting it....it won't be there next year, I'm sure that it will die of lead poisoning, or lack of bark...or something... long before then. Just kidding. Seriously, it was a great match. Fun match. Like many have said, Squad 8 had to be one of the funnest squads that I have ever shot on. Thanks to all the sponsors and for everyone's hard work at the match, MD, RO's, stats, etc.

[Big Bear]

Thanks I'm glad I could provide the stimulus for such a heated debate. I will say this, you never know what to expect in the Ozarks. I'm a middle of the road shooter and I was able to complete all the stages in a respectable time. Stage 7 was more mental than game. There was a legal way to shoot it and minimize the swing. Then all you had to do is hit a 10" plate at 55yrds off hand. That's almost a 20" MOA if your keeping track. The first iron maiden on stage 8 was almost the same MOA but no one has complained about that. Many have said 8 was their favorite.

[BigLucky]

Kirk,

To my surprise I really enjoyed stage 8. Would have like to run it again when the sun was actually up but it was a fun stage. I don't think that you can at all compare the targets on 8 to the ones on 7 though.

Debate is a good thing though. I have to disagree with you totally, stage 7 was all game... not sure what the legal way to minimize swing was, I shot it sitting on the front and other than the fact I didn't really fit under the bar very well the platform still swung a bit. Those targets were just too small for any offhand shot, must less a seated and swinging one.... I enjoyed the match though, thanks for all the work.

[DA45acp]

I have set up matches with 45# knock down targets at 185 yards, if you were shooting underpowered ammo, guess what? I have taken mini-ipsc cardboard targets painted some green stripes on them and stuck them in tall grass. . . Were it my stage, I might have considered assessing penalties for Failure to Engage penalties or maybe procedurals for not engaging them in the correct order, if the shooter obviously wasn't aiming. Maybe something like IDPA's "failure to do right" penalties.

Rarely have I heard opinions so squarely opposed to my own. Remind me to never shoot a match you are in charge of.

After having read this post I felt compelled to reply but after giving it some thought I feel it is best I just say: I agree with Fullauto Shooter.

[lifebreath]

I didn't say a good time, I said a reasonable time.. To me a reasonable time is less than the penalties you will get if you don't hit any of the targets. I bet 70% of the shooters in that match couldn't have hit all 6 of those slug targets in the 60 seconds of penalties they get for not hitting any of them.

You say "shame on the gamers", I call BS on that whole line of thought. There was a correct order you had to engage, but with targets that close at 60 yards there was no way to tell if they were engaged in that order. The whole stage was bad. I am pretty sure if you did any of those other things you mentioned in a major match people would be just as upset. Stump the chump crap like that is great for club matches, which are basically organized practice sessions. Anything that requires luck over skill doesn't belong in a major match, in my humble opinion. 3 Gun isn't an MOA game, and surely not with shotgun slugs that don't shoot with MOA accuracy anyway. I am going to game any stage that I can, that is part of the game. That FTDR BS is why I don't shoot IDPA.

Whatever, I enjoyed 7 of the 8 stages we shot and had fun shooting with the squad of great shooters I was on.

This. Design the stage so that "gaming" it doesn't gain anything, otherwise, shooters will game it. As for me, since I'm a 3-gun newbie, I slugged away and away and away until I figured I'd just take the penelty for the last three I didn't hit.

Edited September 11, 2012 by lifebreath

[Jesse Tischauser]

LOL I shot 18 times, total time 86 seconds and knocked 5 down. It probably would have been about the same ending if I had just blasted a quick six at them. I have to admit, if nothing else, it was satisfying to see those targets get the shit knocked out if them when they were hit!

You could have saved $10 in slug cost and had more money for beer if you would have only shot 6 times. You would have had the same score.

Lets do Stage 7 again next year, but with some scoring changes:

I think we should have got 10 bonus points for hitting each steel, and 5 bonus for just hitting a car, maybe 2 for a tree, 1 for the ground in front of the target.

This system would have given me about a -25 second time on my run.

LOL!

Edited September 12, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[latech15]

SCORES please.

[barrysuperhawk]

I didn't say a good time, I said a reasonable time.. To me a reasonable time is less than the penalties you will get if you don't hit any of the targets. I bet 70% of the shooters in that match couldn't have hit all 6 of those slug targets in the 60 seconds of penalties they get for not hitting any of them.

You say "shame on the gamers", I call BS on that whole line of thought. There was a correct order you had to engage, but with targets that close at 60 yards there was no way to tell if they were engaged in that order. The whole stage was bad. I am pretty sure if you did any of those other things you mentioned in a major match people would be just as upset. Stump the chump crap like that is great for club matches, which are basically organized practice sessions. Anything that requires luck over skill doesn't belong in a major match, in my humble opinion. 3 Gun isn't an MOA game, and surely not with shotgun slugs that don't shoot with MOA accuracy anyway. I am going to game any stage that I can, that is part of the game. That FTDR BS is why I don't shoot IDPA.

Whatever, I enjoyed 7 of the 8 stages we shot and had fun shooting with the squad of great shooters I was on.

I will admit I could have phrased my thoughts better, but I stand behind them. The intent of any stage is for the shooter to actually shoot at the targets as presented. The 10 second Failure to neutralize [or 5 second if Jesse gets his way] is apparently not enough of an incentive for some shooters to actually try to hit the targets as presented. That was why a cretain other major match enacted the infamous 100 second penalty on long range rifle targets last year. That wasn't a popular solution either. If we go with the 5 second FTN, then every single shooter on stage 6 could have run up to the roof, rattled off 10 shots as fast as possible and still broken about even on time. Why bother ever shooting any target longer than 100 yards again? Heck, why even bother with a nice optic even, I mean a $50 chicom knockoff is good enough for 100 yards, right? Those are extreme examples, but you see my point.

I personally believe in setting the standard a bit higher, and if the result is a bit difficult, well, it wouldn't be 3 gun if it wasn't a challenge. As far as playing stump the chump, painting the rifle targets camoflauge at my own club matches was a very effective way for me to equalize between optic shooters and irons without running divisions and classes. Magnified optics tended to have a harder time finding the targets so they were effectively on equal footing with the iron shooters. When was the last time you saw that in a match?

Creative stage design that requires shooters to exert effort is the best possible thing for this sport. Sometimes the execution goes a bit awry [rather like my explanations], but the concept is still valid.

ETA I just had inspiration, rather half an inspiration. It's only half because it's an Idea I don't really know how to implement. The idea is, requiring a minimum number of shots at a target before it is determined to be engaged, say 3-5 shots PER target before you avoid the failure to engage. It would obviously put the onus on RO's to count and keep track, but it would separate legitimate misses from just burning rounds downrange. Using my example from above [stage 6] it would increase the non-aimed round requirement to 30-50. The problem I see is it still falls short on Stage 7, because 18-30 slugs is a lot.

My controversial views aside, it was a great match, and as a RO, I think the competitors should get as much credit for making a match as we do. If the competitors don't come to shoot, there is no match, so thank you, each and every one of you. Thank you for traveling, for putting up with the weather, for putting up with the inevitable issues that crop up, for everything. The friends I make at these matches are worth more than anything that could be put on a prize table.

Edited September 12, 2012 by barrysuperhawk

[Benelli Chick]

Just to be clear, the 5 second Failure to Neutralize penalty applies only to paper targets with one non-A hit!

All steel, blank paper, clays etc are ten second MISS penalties in most of the other matches!

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that those steel plates should've been only 5 seconds! Steel must fall to score. Steel that has been shot at, but stands there taunting you is a 10 second penalty!

[Jesse Tischauser]

Just to be clear, the 5 second Failure to Neutralize penalty applies only to paper targets with one non-A hit!

All steel, blank paper, clays etc are ten second MISS penalties in most of the other matches!

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that those steel plates should've been only 5 seconds! Steel must fall to score. Steel that has been shot at, but stands there taunting you is a 10 second penalty!

Exactly, That one C or D on paper has to count for something.

[BigBets]

3 gun is supposed to be challenging...it is also supposed to be practical...shooting slugs at 60 yards from a swinging platform at targets of that size is in no way practical...so much so that if you look at the match book it was suppossed to be rifle...due to a backdrop issue it was changed to slugs from my understanding....

Either way...stages should be able to be completed by the majority of shooters in the time limits imposed...the best shooters will shine regardless...all that stage did is put unrealistic expectations on shooters new and experienced alike and dissapoint nine times out of ten....a course should definitely NOT be so hard that only 10% (and in this case I believe even that number is high) of shooters can shoot it penatly free or within time...

That stage discouraged new people...I watched it...and listened when I saw them talking as if many others were gonna burn it down and they lacked skill or talent...Then I watched many in my squad, with many of the top finishers in the match, give the stage an honest effort and walk away disappointed as well...but we knew that was not because lack of skill...it was unrealistic accuracy expectations with a weapon platform not made for that level of accuracy...period...and its over with so I am moving on..but I can assure you I will never practice shooting slugs off a moving platform at 60 yards at 6 inch wide targets...I have more important things to improve on

Jacob