2004 Multigun Nationals

[Gary Stevens]

Well I don't know if I am an "Old Guard" or not, but from my view the issue is rather simple. The multi-gun rules are in a trial basis and will be modified, I am sure, before a final product is issued. Computer program development cost money. Unfortunately USPSA is not flush with money at this time, partly due to heavy financial losses from previous matches, 3 gun being one of the big hitters. The general thinking was to see if the multi-gun format was successful before developing a program that might only be used for a very short time, at considerable expense, and then just tossed in the back drawer. This will also give us time to shake out the correct formula (rules) to write the program around when we get to that point. Hopefully this will allow a successful conclusion to a new effort without spending money we don't have for a product we can't use.

I will now retire to the "Old Guard" village.

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the inspiration. Again, I love the sport, and will definitely continue competing, but as far as being an "active" member, well, we'll see.

I'm reporting a number of things to the NROI as a result of this match. Issues with RO behavior to not only competitors, but to match staff and match management. One CRO and RO in particular REFUSED to pre-load competitors on an all shotgun stage despite being directed to by the MD and RM. At the RO match, when there was a lack in clarification on the course design on what netting was hard cover or soft cover, and I engaged the stage the way I saw fit, they wanted to DQ me for shooting through hardcover (to clarify it's the typical orange net). I got a reshoot but it's a symptom of a bigger problem.

The CRO's and RO's at the match by and large were good. However, I think from the competitors and as a competitor shooting 11 of the stages, I saw that MANY of the RO's were just flat out overwhelmed with managing 2-3 firearms. There were major opportunities for competitors to use illegal equipment and/or stage/prep their guns contrary to rules (Limited/Tactical shooters loading more than 9 rounds in their shotguns, e.g.). Too I had an Open shooter who started with 10 rounds in the shotgun, retrieved it and loaded 2 rounds (i.e. had a tube that held 12 rounds, not illegal by law, but illegal for USPSA equipment rules). Not tooting my own horn but I caught this, and thankfully I didn't have to DQ the competitor, as there was a stage error that warranted issuing a reshoot. I advised the competitor to go back to the hotel tonight and make a plug for the tube, thus avoiding future problems. The competitor reshot the stage without incident.

We didn't DQ anyone, despite probably 2-3 occassions where it was probably necessary. I have yet to DQ anyone and really don't want to ever do so. However, I know that as much as I enjoy participating where I can in our sport, I probably will enjoy it more from the other side of the clock as a competitor. Like I said, we'll see. I'm still a little dehydrated from the match and am a little emotional. Just kidding.

It was a good time and definitely a learning experience.

Rich

[BPiatt]

I think I have a simple solution in making the targets more valuable.

As far as I can figure, this is a 'score card' issue, not a computer program issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong....

If the EZ score is based on each 'A' hit scores 5 points and we currently have a box on the score card to indicate this, how about making the following change.

If you want a specific target to score 10 points, print the score card with two boxes for that specific target. You hit the steel, check two boxes, thus making the target 10 points. The scorer/stats add up the checked boxes, like we do now, and the problem is solved.

If you want to score a miss for the 10 point target and want the penalty 10 points, a normal miss penalty box would work. If you want the penalty 20 points, TWO miss boxes.

Sounds like it would work to me.

Bruce Piatt

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Bruce,

That's what we do at our clubs.

Rich

[George]

Bruce is right about that workaround and our club uses it already too, The real problem is not in the design of a workaround, but in the implementation. Getting crews of independent people to follow a specific or complicated procedure, “to the letter” is a lot like herding cats

The IMG system works because it is simple and the reason that something like Bruce mentions being difficult to implement is that it requires more steps. Removing steps is always a better design direction than adding steps. Elegance and simplicity go hand in hand in design.

Watch an IMG scored stage being turned around and you will realize that paper scoring goes a good bit faster and the score sheets are of simpler structure and require almost no additional mental effort on the part of the scorekeeper and RO to transcribe even the most complicated stages to paper. At the club level if you allow the tapers to call back any targets that are insufficiently engaged to the RO as they tape them it is lightning fast.

The reduction of the scoresheet to total time is so simple it can be done right at the stage in some cases. Once the scoresheets are reduced to time, entering the score requires almost no effort and the chances of additional mistakes is a lot lower when you only have to enter one number from a scoresheet.

The last big plus IMG scoring offers is to the stage designer who can now specify anything they want/need to insure that all targets are addressed properly by the competitor.

I am not saying that we can’t hammer Tournament and Power Factor based scoring into a fit because as we all know with certain workarounds it can indeed be done. What I am saying is that anytime you hammer a square peg into a round hole, or start re-designing a wheelbarrow into an SUV, you will always end up with a cumbersome product. The search for an elegant solution usually wants less, not more steps in the process.

As much as I would like to see it work out with a new version of EZ-Winscore, I am beginning to think that time based scoring is always gonna be better for multi-gun. You just set the steel so that it takes a 140 PF to take it down and let the competitors ding themselves.

--

Regards,

Edited June 29, 2004 by George

[Neil Beverley]

Neil,

We would love to start with all guns loaded.  However, isn't there a rule about being more than a meter (or meter and a half, can't remember) away from a loaded firearm?  If so, on all the stages, in a loaded condition, competitor's would have been DQ'ed.

For the record, I'm for starting with all guns loaded, safeties on, etc.  I'm also for grounding loaded guns so long as they are pointed in a 'safer' direction (i.e. towards a berm or in such a way that competitor and RO's will not cross the muzzle). 

Thanks for the info.

Rich

First I would say that a loaded magazine and empty chamber is still classed as a loaded gun so as a number of the stages required an empty chamber start the gun is still defined as being loaded within the rules.

There was a discussion on the subject of distance from a loaded gun at the start of a stage on the USPSA/IPSC Rules Forum. By the way the distance is 1 metre.

In a nutshell if you are instructed by the range briefing and therefore the Range Officer to place your gun at a certain position and then instructed to move away you are responding to their direct authority. This overrides the 1m rule up to the start signal. One the start signal is given then the competitor becomes responsible for each gun they then use from the point they start using it (including carrying it if applicable). However the IPSC Rules committee have it noted to discuss a change to the existing rule to make the situation clearer. Please see below a proposed change from Vince Pinto which I will be supporting:

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter (3.28 feet) of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and <snip>

For the record I'm all for the guns starting loaded as well. As well as sometimes unloaded and sometimes with mag loaded and chamber empty. Mix it up I say, it's all good.

As for grounding the gun still loaded? Well we've already discussed this and personally I'm happy with it.

However, Bruce Gary made a very valid point a few weeks back which I support wholeheartedly. Basically he said lets's get this first match done and see what works. Then build on it. I can't fault that as a concept. It sounds to me that the Board is listening and is progressing things. I'm sure next year's match will be that much better as a result of this year and the feedback being generated.

The MG rules will be tweaked. The scoring program will be modified. To me the more important issues to be resolved seem to be competitor and RO training and ability. Not a ctiticism, just an observation.

[RiggerJJ]

Bruce,

Thought you told me you wern't going to Reno??? Would have been great to meet you and discuss this stuff...

The number of stages was PERFECT! The problem that bit us was the low number of squad members. We only had 6 shooters on our squad, and I'm here to tell ya, I sure am glad I made a point of walking ALL the stages thursday before the match. With only 6 squad members you have one that just shot, one shooting, one getting ready to shoot & maybe preloading (on deck), and one walking the stage the last time before preloading (in the hole). That leaves TWO shooters to help tape/set steel/etc. Not enough... I don't mind helping, but I came to the Nationals to shoot, not patch targets... More stage assistants were needed. More than once I shot a stage not having that warm fuzzy of knowing I was doing it the best I could, and it was totally attributed to being rushed...

Then you move to the next bay and you see what firearms are needed and hardly have enough time to load mags, speed tubes, etc before the stage briefing. Forget trying to find time to clean your gun after that dust devil went thru... (like I said, I'm glad I did walkthrus on thursday...)

I can think of two stages that needed 10 point targets, the 340 yarders on stage 15, and the 130 yarders from the haybales. There may have been more needed, these come to mind thou.

The Multi-Gun Rule Book needs range commands. Pistol range commands don't work all the time.

The Multi-Gun Rule Book came out WAY TOO LATE! Abandoning an empty firearm got too many people DQ'd because they didn't have time to figure out how to do it correctly before the nationals.

Abandoning EMPTY firearms has once again proven itself to be UNSAFE. The problem is emptying the firearm ON THE CLOCK. rounds into the berm (maybe over), ejecting all but one, having a jam on the last round, etc, all of it is unsafe. Putting a loaded firearm, safety on, into a padded barrel/tube/carpet cradle pointed at 45 degrees or higher into a sandbag bunker IS SAFE and simple.

Scoring problems? Easy... FIX EasyWinScore to support multi gun, or develop another program that will!!!

ROs. Most knew what they were doing, were great to be around, and were helpful. Some however need to find something else to do. I was once ORDERED by and RO to help tape a stage right after I was done shooting when I was cleaning mags... The "Them vs Us" attitudes were abound, were unprofessional, and have no business being at a national level match...Nuff said???

On the other hand, some shooters should have taken lessons from some of the ROs... Eric, Your stage in peticular comes to mind as being the least "stressful" for me anyway. Great job on standardizing the range commands! Also bay 3 was run by some very helpful ROs.

Reno... Nice range, but... two HUGE dust devils in one day? yech... it will take me a month to clean that horrible fine dust from everything, including my truck...

I had a great time, learned a lot, and shot well (1st Open C class). would I do it again? yes. At Reno? probably not...

JJ

[Flexmoney]

George,

I missed a step somewhere...what is "IMG scoring"?

[uscbigdawg]

Abandoning EMPTY firearms has once again proven itself to be UNSAFE. The problem is emptying the firearm ON THE CLOCK. rounds into the berm (maybe over), ejecting all but one, having a jam on the last round, etc, all of it is unsafe.

JJ - While it is the condition that was present during most of the DQ's, I have to disagree and say that it is not the condition which caused the DQ's. SMM3G this year had 273 competitors and I think the number of DQ's was less than 10. There are hot guns down range and you ground cold guns in a match where time is a bigger factor. Lack of shooter familiarity with their own equipment and carelessness is what caused the DQ's.

Flex - Time plus penalties for not neutralizing a target (i.e. 1A = Neutralized; 2 anywehre = neutralized; 1 B, C or D = not neutralized and therefore earns a penalty). I think this works, but doesn't acknowledge accuracy or power. So, something like IDPA where each zone outside of A is additional time. This would take care of accuracy. For power, if you're major your penalities per area are fewer than minor (i.e. what we do now).

Rich

[George]

I missed a step somewhere...what is "IMG scoring"?

IMG scoring is where all your run time and any penalties which are assessed as time added are the total score for that stage. A flat one size fit’s all power factor is used (typically set at 150 or less) and raw time sets the competitors ranking.

Here is a link to the SMM3G rules page where the time penalty assessments are spelled out.

http://www.ultimateaccessories.com/smm3g/rules.htm

--

Regards,

[Chris]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'burning' a round into the berm when you

don't have a sight picture considered an AD? I saw lots of people looking

the other way while waving their pistol with one hand at the berm and set

it off to clear it.

[TommyGun]

I agree with Chris, this was the first time I have witnessed the "unloading". I thought the first on was an AD. I didn't see any advantage in that type of unload over a conventional mag drop and slide rack. Looked very scary to me.

As for the gaming part......

My shotgun broke on the second stage of the match. It took me several stages to get it running right again, and it still wasn't 100%.

My rifle was set-up for a 90 degree cant for the long range scope portion. This made it almost impossible to shoot from the lower tight ports on the long range rifle stage. I couldn't see all the tagets on the right, and could even try to get the ones on the left. So after all of that, a Zero on that stage the shotgun breaking down, and having a total of 20 misses and a few FTE after the shotgun failures. I decided to have some fun for the rest of the match.

I had never gamed out so many stages before this match. My shooting partner was having a very bad week, my guns broke down, I really wasn't into the match. I fiqured out with the low hit factors I could get some points without frustrating myself futher, and it worked. I do belive if I could have kept my head into it, and shot the match straight up, I would have finished alot better, with alot less ammo.

On the other hand if things would have gotten much worse I might have just packed it in, and not have seen the rest of the match. And at the rate I was going might not have planned on another 3Gun event. So I'm happy I stuck it out and finished the match. I meet alot of nice guys, and one hell of a good female shooter from the west coast ( Sue you shot a great match). My hats off to them. They can shoot that 3Gun stuff.

As for me I think I'll stick to my Pistol, and just dable with the 3Gun here and there.

Just my two cents,

Tommy T

[ErikW]

Pre-loading areas should not be in the splatter impact zone of steel. Which means if you have steel on the side berms, you'll need to construct a splatter guard on the side with the pre-loading table.

Pre-loading areas should be clearly identified as prohibiting unsupervised gun handling. Everybody and his mother used Bay 5's shotgun pre-loading table as a general safe area for bagging and unbagging. They left so many bags on the table it was hard to pre-load the on-deck shooter.

Pre-loading areas should have some physical barriers to discourage unsupervised use. Without a dedicated pre-loading RO, a quarantined shotgun is less risky to leave.

[kurtm]

Wow where to start?? I guess first I will address Eric's comment on "stupid" questions about loading. I was told by one R.O. to load the tube on my shotgun and drop the hammer, when I do this with the good old Benelli a round AUTOMATICALY drops out onto the carrier. He wanted to D.Q. me right there! YOU CAN'T DO THAT he cried! I tried to explain it to him but he didn't want to listen. Thankfully the head R.O. knew how Benellis work. Some of the pre load questions Eric got asked...and I will admit I asked some pretty "dumb" soundiing ones on his stage were to avoid the conflicts ALREADY experienced! I KNOW how my gear works, trust me, but damn few R.O.s seemed to!! edit At least 50% didn't even know the rules for the match and MADE THEM UP as they went! On stage 9, I screwed it up better than most, with a run by and 3 misses, after I showed clear, the R.O. stated while chuckling, "You are having a bad match now"! Very unproffesional!! He seemed gleefull that I had "f"ed up his stage and was proud to laddle on the penalties! Thank goodness the stage was latter thrown out! On to speed unloading.

VN Gunfighter almost lost an eye and recieved some finger and thumb lacerations when a round detonated while " speed unloading". The round sliped by the extractor, wedged against the ejection port on the slide and was driven into the ejector by vigorous slide racking to "unload" fast. [RO] said stop as you are bleeding and now D.Qed....I can see him filing another notch on his D.Q swagger stick... I found the blown case, looked like a peeled banana, and a bit of intervention by the chief R.O. garnered a reshoot. You can bet after that Jimmie DIDN"T rack to clear, as a few here have mentioned, he burned them into the berm. Why loose your sight for a stupid rule. I have seen this several times befor, and already knew it would happen this match. As for burning the rounds out, it is also dangerous sometimes they don't burn into the berm, but that didn't seem to matter as some of the rifle targets were engaged out of the berm that the main course of fire was held in, so I guess it all evened out. I will say it again, SPEED UNLOADING IS DANGEROUS!!!!!!! Oh yea and VNGunfighter needed a new set of shooting glasses, so remember to wear yours!!

The stages and props left much to be desired, and it looked to me like a good state match, NOT a national level anything. The Texas state 3-gun had much better gadget tartgets ( stars, clam shells, swingers, droppers, etc) and the stage props were on parr ( walls, barricades, etc.) I can only imagin what the people who don't do a lot of 3-gun thought. I did hear that after the first day , several just didn't bother to show back up. The range it'sself was terrible! Every afternoon the wind would pick up and dust was blown every where. In all the years I shot SOF I thought the Desert sportsmans range was bad untill I anchored here. The first day after 2:30 P.M. it was hard to see the end of a 50 yard berm for the dust! The very abbreviated awards were in a dust storm that would rival any I have been through anywhere in the world. Unless I get divorced I won't be back to Reno!!

On an up, I got a chance to sit down and play a few hands of BlackJack with Bruce, Tony and Benny, and am reminded that I just don't get to see these guys offten enough. I got to see Benny Hill Speachless in Reno! I got to renew my relation with R.O. Roger whom I haden't seen since the Italy shoot, and meet his R.O. Charlie who reinstills my faith in R.O.s being proffesional. My hat is off to ALL that helped put this match on, as I and 3 otheres put on a big match too, I know how much work it is. My hat is also off to USPSA for FINALY doing multi-gun. I can't help but feel that this match will help fill Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, as we WILL NOT do " speed unloading " and we have done multigun for lo these last 5 years and have it fairly well figured out! Would I shoot the "Nationals" again?? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!! I think I will save the $1000.00 and get a lobotomy to forget this one That may sound like sour grapes but to finish second to Bennie Cooley as an UNCLASSIFIED shooter aint too bad!!! KURTM

Edited July 1, 2004 by Flexmoney

[kimel]

I am reading a lot of criticism of the RO staff not knowing how to handle multiple guns and/or not knowing anything about 3-gun. What the heck did you expect for the first time USPSA has ever held a multi-gun 3-gun match? And with the electrons barely stable on the multi-gun, shotgun and rifle rules when the match started this was BOUND to cause confusion.

The tales of rude ROs and other staff that don't follow directions from the MD/RM really have me shaking my head. Obviously these folks need to be sought out and shown the error of their ways and/or the door, if necessary. Our sport cannot survive with this sort of attitude.

Next year there will be a lot more people with some 3-gun experience and a better set of multi-gun rules. Hopefully as the RO Level I and CRO Level II seminars are re-tooled for the new rulebook(s) they will include training material regarding 3-gun. (Oh Troy.....)

When "we" have a sub-optimal experience at a match we have three choices: 1) Take our toys and go home mad; 2) Do nothing; or, 3) Offer to pitch in and make it better (hopefully) next year.

Wanna know why new shooters are turned off? It isn't the rulebook. It is the majority of shooters that exercise option #1 in a very vocal manner and offer reams and reams of unconstructive criticism and vitriol and then quitting. Quitters never win. [Nope...Not picking on anyone in particular here...if you feel I am then maybe it is time you exercise option #3.] Those that exercise option #2 also contribute to the decline by not contributing to the success.

You don't want to pick brass, tape and reset targets? Fine. Hire a kid that is interested in learning and making a few bucks to work for you (can you say "Caddy"?). You might just help encourage a future champion.

Constructive criticism is good and I think we all know and appreciate that many of the ADs are reading these threads and taking notes. Thanks Bruce, Gary, Rob, et al.

Rich and others have said USPSA is entrenched. Oh really? Isn't the establishment of provisional rules and then asking the shooters for input, a change in the right direction? Some might even go so far as to call this a radical change when compared to the past.

Sure, maybe XYZ 3G is better. But they run what, one match a year at one location with basically the same core staff year to year? USPSA needs to be able to assist in running dozens, even hundreds, of matches a year where there is little or no continuity in staff from match to match. The rule book is thick because of this. We have NROI because of this. We have certified ROs, CROs, RMs and RMIs because of this need.

Don't like the way things are going? Is an AD position up for election in your region this year? Next year? What about Section Manager? Put your hat in the ring and then work for a win so you can get into the middle of things and find out what it is like to be on the inside.

The past couple AD races have gone uncontested. Even if those ADs are doing a great job this sort of thing is NOT healthy for an organization in the long-term. Don't have the time/money/resources to do that? Fine. Let your AD know you are willing to help out in whatever capacity you can and then follow through when asked to lend a hand.

It is far easier to complain about something than it is to fix it. If even 25% of the people that were complaining really pitched in and helped make it right, it could be awesome.

You are either part of the solution or YOU are the problem.

'nuf said.

<ApplyNomexUnderwear>

[BDH]

Okay, I am sort of getting back in the swing of things after working my ass off at this match, and then missing my red-eye connection and having to sleep at a gate in Salt Lake City Sunday night. Here are a couple of comments from my perspective.....

Regarding RO's/CRO's - First, we were short-staffed (again...) Second, even I was caught off guard that we were using 15th ed Shotgun and Rifle rules, with 14th ed pistol rules. This in itself created several issues. Of course, then we also had the new MG provisional rules to deal with as well. Could the range staff have been better trained? Of course, but I have a tough time faulting anyone as the timing was simply too short.

Range Commands - Part 1 - I agree we need work here. Our stage (Bay Five Battery Ram with me, Erik Warren and one of USPSA's most experienced range staff, Jay Worden) had to deal with all three guns. We would pre-load the shotgun, and when we were ready for the shooter, would call next shooter bring your rifle and shotgun. The sequence I tried to follow was as follows:

"Hand me your rifle. Place you shotgun in position on the table". After they positioned their shotgun, I would hand them back their rifle, and start walking downrange.

"Close action. Hammer down. Insert magazine. Place rifle on the table". After they positioned their rifle, I would start walking uprange to the start position with the shooter following me.

As we approached the start position, I would say "you can position the battering ram as you see fit". Once they did that, I would set the door, put them in the box, and give LAMR.

One of the reasons I did it this way was if I gave LAMR when we were placing their first gun (shotgun), that meant if there was any mis-cue after that on the way to placing the rifle or back to the start position where we would deal with the pistol (ie. dropped gun), they would have been done. I decided to eliminate that problem by placing the long guns, and getting everything ready, before giving LAMR.

Range Commands - Part 2 - 14th and 15th ed conflicts. The 14th ed. says... 'Gun clear, hammer down, etc' while the 15th ed. says 'If clear, hammer down, etc'. On our stage we cleared the rifle, then shotgun, then pistol. That meant we had.....

'If you are finished unload and show clear'

'If clear, hammer down, open action' (rifle)

'If clear, hammer down, open action' (shotgun)

'Gun clear, hammer down, holster' (pistol)

Not that this is a big deal, but everyone was working really long days, and if someone screwed up some range commands, all I can say is oh well, we will try harder next year. NO ONE is more of a stickler for range commands than me, and I had to constantly be thinking about which gun, which rules, etc.

Side note: Actually, one of the funnier coments I heard was when I said 'if clear, hammer down, open action' to one shooter and he turned, looked at me and said 'aww come on. At least give me a hint' (about the IF clear command).

Pre-loading Shotguns - Part 1 - Two things here.... first, we did pre-load the shotguns on our stage (maybe not with our first squad, but it rapidly became apparent that we would have to do this), and second, unless we had an extra RO to stay with the gun, this always makes me a little nervous. Sure, I realize that shotguns do not jump up, chamber a round and pull the trigger, but remember what Range Officers are taught... SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY. I think it is natural to be a little apprehensive when we have a 'loaded firearm' behind us and not under direct supervision.

Pre-loading Shotguns - Part 2 - Nearly every competitor needs to read 8.1.1.2. 'Loaded (Option 2): magazine filled and fitted (if applicable), chamber(s) empty and the action closed'. Under 'Option 2' US Division rules are maximum of ten rounds loaded in Open and maximum of 8 rounds loaded in Standard or Tactical. For the Benelli shooters out there, that means 8 (or 10) rounds MAXIMUM, with chamber empty. It does NOT mean 8 (or 10) plus ONE on the carrier. Sorry, but we spent a lot of un-necessary time on this one.

Speed Unloads - For some reason, several shooters thought it was faster to stop and dump one round downrange (safely), than it was to drop the mag, and rack the slide before putting the pistol down safely. I don't get it as even I could see this was slower. However, when it comes to shotgun, I can understand. The tough part of some of this is that competitors have to remember that you can not dump rounds into the dirt a yard away from your feet, and you can not dump rounds toward (but over) the berms. Sorry, but if you have questions, see section 10.4.

General Comments - Overall, I thought this was a good match. Lots of new challenges, but both the staff, and the shooters seemed to deal with them fairly well. I will say that I have NEVER worked harder at a match than at this match. Generally on the range by 6:15 AM and never leaving before 9:00 or 9:30 PM. Factor in the 30 min hotel to range transit time on top of this (each way) and we are starting to get some pretty short nights.

I do think that we tried to jamb too many stages into the match though. There was no buffer for anything to go wrong (and of course, something always goes wrong). I would put our crew (me, Erik, and Jay) up against anyone else as far as running a stage efficiently, and the bottom line is that..... it takes much longer to load and stage three guns, than is does one gun. It also takes longer to clear three guns than one gun. There aren't any shortcuts here...

I just hope we all learn from the experience, and while this one worked, we figure out how to do it a little better next time....

ps. you guys can choose to believe this or not, but it is absolutely true...... on the way back to the hotel from the range, I would be thinking about how good a shower and my bed would feel. However, one of the other things I thought about was the poor shooters that left the range around the same time as we did, but they had to drive back to town, eat, shower, etc.... then clean three guns, and get ready to be ready to shoot at 7:00 AM (or in a couple of cases, 6:00 AM) the next morning. Hats off to you guys (gals). The staff worked really hard, but you guys were the real troopers.......

pps. Erik and I decided that kurtm cheated during this match. We couldn't quite figure exactly HOW he did it, but it appeared he had some type of suction equipment attached to his shotgun. All he had to do was get a shell near the gun and it was automatically sucked into the magazine tube. Obviously, we could not call him on this since we could not identify how he actually did this. Anyway, if you shoot against him in the future, I would suggest you pay attention to this.... Seriously, kurtm is the reloading king! Kurt, hope to see you again....

[mactiger]

Second, even I was caught off guard that we were using 15th ed Shotgun and Rifle rules, with 14th ed pistol rules. This in itself created several issues. Of course, then we also had the new MG provisional rules to deal with as well. Could the range staff have been better trained? Of course, but I have a tough time faulting anyone as the timing was simply too short.

Uh, since none of the new rules, Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun, except for the provisional MG rules, are in effect in the US, how could they be used at the match? I bet the competitors were surprised as well.

Troy

[BDH]

Uh, since none of the new rules, Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun, except for the provisional MG rules, are in effect in the US, how could they be used at the match?  I bet the competitors were surprised as well. 

Troy

Troymeister,

I am sure we are on the same page, but this match was run under the 14th ed Pistol rules... the 15th ed Shotgun rules... the 15th ed Rifle rules... and the new MG rules....

As I stated, we did the best we could with what we had in the time frame we had to deal with it.....

[mactiger]

Well, I just took a look at the USPSA page, and it seems that the Shotgun and Rifle rules are effective, at least if I'm reading it right. I don't see how that could be, since there hasn't been an official announcement that I'm aware of, nor have they been distributed to the membership. I was under the impression that none of the rules would be in effect until the pistol rules were published and distributed. Obviously, that was the wrong impression. But, I bet I'm not the only one to think that.

Troy

[BDH]

There's going to have to be some thought on renewing membership.  I'm definitely not RO'ing Nationals again.

Rich, I'm not sure how much big match RO experience you have (not faulting you, I just do not know), but if I was a first time Nats RO at this 3 Gun, you would probabaly never see me again either.

I am reading a lot of criticism of the RO staff not knowing how to handle multiple guns and/or not knowing anything about 3-gun.

Not saying that we did not make some mistakes, but..... KIMEL for PRESIDENT!!! You've got my vote!

[mactiger]

Excellent post, Kimel.

BTW, I am working on adding some long gun content to the Level I & II seminars, as well as working on putting together a "mega-seminar" for the early part of next year. Any suggestions will be welcomed.

Regards,

Troy

[BDH]

Well, I just took a look at the USPSA page, and it seems that the Shotgun and Rifle rules are effective, at least if I'm reading it right.  I don't see how that could be, since there hasn't been an official announcement that I'm aware of, nor have they been distributed to the membership.  I was under the impression that none of the rules would be in effect until the pistol rules were published and distributed.  Obviously, that was the wrong impression.  But, I bet I'm not the only one to think that.

Troy

Troy, thank you for helping me with my therapy! I thought I was going to be committed to even more inpatient therapy at the ICFMIRO's. Apparently, I didn't miss this.... (OR, for you my friend..... you are about to be 'committed').... Biscuits and mustard.... mmMMMmmmmmm

[Skywalker]

I got to renew my relation with R.O. Roger whom I haden't seen since the Italy shoot

Kurt,

if you meet again Roger, please tell him "howdy, bud?" for me.

Thanks.

[kurtm]

Bdh/Eric

Your stage ran well and it was nice to run into R.O who knew "guns". As for cheating I mearly rigged a wind ventury to the end of the tube and let the afternoon gail force winds do the rest See you down the shooting trail. KURTM

[kurtm]

Kimel:

I would have expected the "august" USPSA to contact the othere XYZ 3-gun matches and GET A CLUE!!! I have been instrumental in puttng on " large" 3-gun matches for the last 5 years, matches that generated 200-250 shooters, and no one burned a path to my door, even after I made it clear that the knowledge was available. Since I am NOT one of the great NROI baptized, sanctified, ratified, It all falls on deaf ears. My mental picture is of a board member with both hands clamped over his ears saying " la la la la" as I try to tell him what to expect! I am not sure that there is a great big list of what to do, but there is a damn big one of what NOT to do, but I am sure you guys will figure that out on your own, as it seems that you sure don't want any knowledgable help. KURT A. MILLER