Why not limit rifle rounds?

[warpspeed]

I do not have the depth or breadth of experience that many here do but in the small # of 3 gun matches I have shot, there may have been 1 or 2 times a magazine greater than 30 rounds would have been helpful based on the stage design.

Now, there have been plenty of times where my lack of accuracy has dictated > 30 rounds but that is on me.

I say no need for a limit unless someone just wants to make it so.

[ArmdCtzn]

I hadn't seen the discussion about rifle mags in the 2011 FNH thread, thanks for the heads-up on that, Chuck.

I like his box idea for magazines, but obviously it wasn't very popular. Personally I think that would be a great

idea for tactical divisions, but I don't expect it to catch on judging from the discussion, which is fine.

If a stage designer wants rifle mag changes to be part of his stage he can specify starting with only ten rounds

in the rifle or similar. Of course you gamer guys will just drop that mag at the beep and stick your Beta mags in!

Ok, you must start with only ten rounds in your rifle and engage targets using those ten rounds until they are gone

before making a mag change. That would be an interesting twist in a stage now and then.

[59Bassman]

I have no problem with the "start with 10 rounds and fire 'till empty". Heck, for that matter, put 5 hoser targets up close, and have a lengthy sprint up to the next shooting position - make the guy carry that heavy beta mag along with him for the hump if that's what he wants to do.

One of my favorite stages was a shotgun stage in 1 bay followed by a 75 yard sprint with your unloaded rifle up to the next bay, loading once you got to that bay. There were about 20 targets at the next bay, including some clay targets hung over no-shoots at about 50 yards. If you wanted to run with that big stick, you were OK to do so. Otherwise, it was pretty much a required mag change.

I'd rather see stage designs that encourage the desired behavior than a mandated rule.

[carlosa]

Also keep in mind that in "good" 3 gun stage design..

Sometimes certain shooting shooting position really encourage 30 round mags (think of shooting under a barricade

Seriously if this is a concern adress it in stage design..

Stage designers can be gamers too

[Flexmoney]

In this entire thread there is still not one sensible reason to limit rifle rounds.

Not that I am for it, but try this for a "sensible reason"...

Magazine changes are a "practical" skill set. One that should be executed on the clock. I just plain consider this a FACT* (my opinion).

There are various ways to do so. One can test the skill set with a standards (mandatory reload at point X in the stage). One can also get there with a magazine restriction. The latter would allow for the shooter to decide the when and where. Freestyle.

A limit would also allow the stage designer to put the shooter on the edge. For instance, how about a 30 round mag on a stage that finishes on distant steel that pushes the shooter close to that capacity. They then have to choose whether hit a reload before the steel or risk missing steel and running dry. Freestyle. (which you wouldn't get with a "perform a mandatory reload before the last shot" stage)

*Even the mag-coupler crowd can have a failure in any number of ways.

[Charles Bond]

In this entire thread there is still not one sensible reason to limit rifle rounds.

Not that I am for it, but try this for a "sensible reason"...

Magazine changes are a "practical" skill set. One that should be executed on the clock. I just plain consider this a FACT* (my opinion).

There are various ways to do so. One can test the skill set with a standards (mandatory reload at point X in the stage). One can also get there with a magazine restriction. The latter would allow for the shooter to decide the when and where. Freestyle.

A limit would also allow the stage designer to put the shooter on the edge. For instance, how about a 30 round mag on a stage that finishes on distant steel that pushes the shooter close to that capacity. They then have to choose whether hit a reload before the steel or risk missing steel and running dry. Freestyle. (which you wouldn't get with a "perform a mandatory reload before the last shot" stage)

*Even the mag-coupler crowd can have a failure in any number of ways.

Kyle your new to the USPSA BOD and I am proud your there. But your going to find out real soon that all of the talk about "practical" shooting is mostly limited to the members rather than the leadership. Good luck.

[Chuck Anderson]

In this entire thread there is still not one sensible reason to limit rifle rounds.

Not that I am for it, but try this for a "sensible reason"...

Magazine changes are a "practical" skill set. One that should be executed on the clock. I just plain consider this a FACT* (my opinion).

There are various ways to do so. One can test the skill set with a standards (mandatory reload at point X in the stage). One can also get there with a magazine restriction. The latter would allow for the shooter to decide the when and where. Freestyle.

A limit would also allow the stage designer to put the shooter on the edge. For instance, how about a 30 round mag on a stage that finishes on distant steel that pushes the shooter close to that capacity. They then have to choose whether hit a reload before the steel or risk missing steel and running dry. Freestyle. (which you wouldn't get with a "perform a mandatory reload before the last shot" stage)

*Even the mag-coupler crowd can have a failure in any number of ways.

Then why not manipulate this required skill set the same way we do with Pistol, by stage design. Either requiring a mag change via a standards stage, or force them to use a shorter mag based on position requirements. It's really common in three gun to have to shoot off of an angled roof, or through a low prone port, or up against a wall. Any of these positions can make using a 48 round, 60 round or 100 round magazine difficult or impossible. Rather than putting the requirement on the RO to count to 30, or taking equipment that members have already bought and telling they can't use it any more, or if they did to use it in an different Division. To be honest, I haven't been back to SMM3G since they did away with C-Mags. I just bought one the yeat before. That was the straw that broke the camel's back and I don't go to Rio anymore. I don't go to Rocky Mountain because they don't allow me to monopod off my coupled magazines like I do at every other venue. Both of the matches have every right to make whatever changes they want, just like I have the right to patronize them or not as I see fit. Funny thing is I'm shooting Open this year which means neither of the rules would apply to me anyway, but I still don't have a desire to go back.

[Charles Bond]

Chuck Anderson's post above is solid food for thought and illustrates the need for real thinking going into rule change requests as opposed to just a knee jerk decision on how to do things. A sterling example is the coupled mags. If everyone can have one and use them in the same way, what's the issue? The problem with any equipment issue is that when you dismiss the concerns of shooters who have money invested in their equipment, you end up losing good people who happen to be outstanding shooters like Chuck. And while some would say that is only one shooter, my experience with match administration is that when you dismiss the concerns of shooters like him, your really telling several others not to return since the big difference in Chuck is he is going to express himself as he did above. And lastly it is not about filling the match but rather filling the match with outstanding competitors.

[badchad]

Then why not manipulate this required skill set the same way we do with Pistol, by stage design. Either requiring a mag change via a standards stage, or force them to use a shorter mag based on position requirements.

Or by limiting magazines, they same way we do with Pistol.

[Jim Norman]

I am still 100% behind allowing any magazine and any capacity you want in any division. Just ALLOW, not REQUIRE the stage designer to REQUIRE the competitor to perform a mandatory reload after engaging the first target and prior to engaging the last target.

Positions can make a Beta impossible to use, true, same for a 48, but many times those positions may or do prevent a competitor from even getting into the position. We have some shooters of very large stature that could not get near to the mouse hole needed to preclude a Beta or a 48. Stage design works only to a point and Standards at a Major just plain suck. I don't want to spend $200+ for entry, days of travel to shoot standards.

[Chuck Anderson]

Then why not manipulate this required skill set the same way we do with Pistol, by stage design. Either requiring a mag change via a standards stage, or force them to use a shorter mag based on position requirements.

Or by limiting magazines, they same way we do with Pistol.

We don't require maganzine changes on stages by limiting the magazine length. Sure we can run a stage with more rounds than can be held in a normal pistol magazine. But there will always be someone shooting Minor who has a couple more rounds, or in Time Plus they decide to single targets instead of doubling them. Pistol magazines had length restrictions before Multigun even started. They weren't implemented after 1000 people already had gear that would now be illegal.

I'm pretty sure the many reasons for not limiting rifle magazines have been covered, but I'll try this again in really small words.

1. Make bad equipment shooters have.

2. RO no count big number

3. Mag long hard measure

4. Scope Tac work, leave f alone

[badchad]

We don't require maganzine changes on stages by limiting the magazine length.

But we do limit magazine length or capacity in every pistol division, which ensures every division will have to reload on the clock at least sometime. So if you want to engage all the targets, pistol shooters are required (for all practical purposes) to reload. Arguing the contrary is just a semantical game.

[Flexmoney]

Then why not manipulate this required skill set the same way we do with Pistol, by stage design.

Huh? Every pistol division has a limit in one way or another...which can force a reload due to the round count of the stage. Nobody is running 45 round mags in Pistol. Well, I take that back...I have shot a non-affiliated pistol match that didn't have a limit of any sort, and I put +5's base pads on my G18 mags.

Either requiring a mag change via a standards stage, or force them to use a shorter mag based on position requirements.

I think I covered the pros and cons of a "standards". It's an option, for sure.

I also like stage design aspects, and it could be addressed there. But, I think you mentioned Larry's match. I wasn't in his head, but he and I have shared match design thoughts. I would guess that him wanting to limit capacity in his match was to allow him some freedom in stage design...which would allow the shooters freedom in choosing the when and how of a reload.

[Flexmoney]

Kyle your new to the USPSA BOD and I am proud your there. But your going to find out real soon that all of the talk about "practical" shooting is mostly limited to the members rather than the leadership. Good luck.

I'm no posting about the BOD, USPSA, non-USPSA or anything else.

I personally feel that a reload is a practical skill set that I believe needs tested on the clock. (I feel the same way about carrying a J-frame...which has nothing to do with any organization, really )

I mention the reload as a point of [on topic] discussion.

[Chuck Anderson]

We don't require maganzine changes on stages by limiting the magazine length.

But we do limit magazine length or capacity in every pistol division, which ensures every division will have to reload on the clock at least sometime. So if you want to engage all the targets, pistol shooters are required (for all practical purposes) to reload. Arguing the contrary is just a semantical game.

We who? USPSA? IMGA? They highest standard round count in USPSA for pistol is 32. There are 31+1 round Open mags, no loads there. Most stages, except where you shoot tend to be less than 32 rounds.

Yes USPSA and some IMGA matches have mag length limits on the pistol(not all by the way). However that limits length, not capacity. You have an option to shoot a smaller caliber to obtain a higher capacity.

Sure you can limit length in rifle mags, but you'll still find someone who will stuff more rounds in somehow. I guarantee you if you limit it to the length of a thirty it will take someone all of twenty minutes to cut down their Surefire to that length. Sure you can eliminate quad stacks, triple stacks etc you'll still have people game it.

Why? Simply to require a reload? Why do you want to screw with the single most popular division in three gun? Here's another idea, you want to practice loadIng the rifle? Start with the rifle unloaded. There you go. Grab it and load it. You're not going to force anyone to sell their $500 in magazines they already bought.

There are a lot of different reasons why this is a bad idea. It's easy to try and focus on one and disagree with it. I still haven't heard a decent argument in favor of changing the equipment rules other than why not?

[ArmdCtzn]

I'm pretty sure the many reasons for not limiting rifle magazines have been covered, but I'll try this again in really small words.

1. Make bad equipment shooters have.

2. RO no count big number

3. Mag long hard measure

4. Scope Tac work, leave f alone

1. Shooter sell equipment to open guys.

2. RO no need count, shooter honest plus box rule

3. Make box, mag fit good, no fit no good

4. Reloads make Scope Tac even more fun

[Jim Norman]

Again to the point...

Allow within the rules, the designer to REQUIRE a reload after engaging the first target and prior to engaging the last target. Allow this on a limited number of stages, say no more than 1:3 ratio in a match.

No Box

No Count

No equipment unusable

No Measure

No Sell

No Hassle

Then again, maybe I am just too simple to understand.

Reloading is a skill set that should be practiced under time pressure.

Loading on the clock is not the same as reloading on the clock, close, but not the same.

[mpeltier]

In this entire thread there is still not one sensible reason to limit rifle rounds.

Not that I am for it, but try this for a "sensible reason"...

Magazine changes are a "practical" skill set. One that should be executed on the clock. I just plain consider this a FACT* (my opinion).

There are various ways to do so. One can test the skill set with a standards (mandatory reload at point X in the stage). One can also get there with a magazine restriction. The latter would allow for the shooter to decide the when and where. Freestyle.

A limit would also allow the stage designer to put the shooter on the edge. For instance, how about a 30 round mag on a stage that finishes on distant steel that pushes the shooter close to that capacity. They then have to choose whether hit a reload before the steel or risk missing steel and running dry. Freestyle. (which you wouldn't get with a "perform a mandatory reload before the last shot" stage)

*Even the mag-coupler crowd can have a failure in any number of ways.

I absolutely agree that mag changes are a practice skill. I don't agree with having to plan a test of that skill on the clock by limiting capacity. Standards and stage design will do this. Realisticly in most cases a standards stage is the only way to test this skill. Why not test for malfunctions with a mandatory dummy round in the magazine, we do that at work on the clock. There are other skills we don't test via rules or stage design. I don't think skills testing is at the root of this discussion.

[Charles Bond]

Boxes? If we are going to be serious about boxes let's make the entire rifle fit in them with the mag for all divisions which would mean if you show up in open with that super duper scope, you have to use shorter mags. Or we could say that the guys over 50 with the fuzzy sights get to use higher capacity mags than the younger guns. We can come up with all kinds of funny rules or we can just keep doing that which has built the sport.

I am really not against forcing reloads but I am not for it either. On the other hand if we could just have a stage with 30 distant steel targets, we would not need to have this discussion.

[Stlhead]

I could care less about magazine changes, I think that if they are "limited" it would be to differentiate between the divisions and to make limited more limited. You do it in heavy metal why shouldn't it be specified for limited? Oh , and I am specificly typing at you Chuck! I would also still like it to be known that I could care less I just don't want to pass up the chance to argue with Mr. Anderson.

[carlosa]

In this entire thread there is still not one sensible reason to limit rifle rounds.

Not that I am for it, but try this for a "sensible reason"...

Magazine changes are a "practical" skill set. One that should be executed on the clock. I just plain consider this a FACT* (my opinion).

There are various ways to do so. One can test the skill set with a standards (mandatory reload at point X in the stage). One can also get there with a magazine restriction. The latter would allow for the shooter to decide the when and where. Freestyle.

A limit would also allow the stage designer to put the shooter on the edge. For instance, how about a 30 round mag on a stage that finishes on distant steel that pushes the shooter close to that capacity. They then have to choose whether hit a reload before the steel or risk missing steel and running dry. Freestyle. (which you wouldn't get with a "perform a mandatory reload before the last shot" stage)

*Even the mag-coupler crowd can have a failure in any number of ways.

I absolutely agree that mag changes are a practice skill. I don't agree with having to plan a test of that skill on the clock by limiting capacity. Standards and stage design will do this. Realisticly in most cases a standards stage is the only way to test this skill. Why not test for malfunctions with a mandatory dummy round in the magazine, we do that at work on the clock. There are other skills we don't test via rules or stage design. I don't think skills testing is at the root of this discussion.

+1

Plus C'mon we do enough reloading of the shotgun!!

Do we really need more reloads??

If there's going to be a limit to the rifle can I at least have a box fed mag shotgun be legal in tac optics

Give me a break! I need it

[Flexmoney]

I pulled the latest post for name calling and antagonistic tone.

Talk about an idea, that is discussion. Talk about a person, that is against the rules here.

Be respectful, not matter how much you might disagree.

- Admin.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Flexmoney

[abn-rgr]

I can count on one hand the number of reloads I had to do in outlaw 3 gun last year with a pistol. It was usually because of 5X5's at 40 yards (thanks Andy!!!) No one makes pistol mag changes mandatory, why the hell would we do it with rifle???? I just dont understand what some of you all are thinking.

Edited January 12, 2012 by abn-rgr

[Brian Payne]

I can see making rules to "allow" items for use in our sport (like RDS in Tac Iron). I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to make a rule to "not allow" items we are already using. If you don't want to use that item, don't use it, the rules allow that train of thought already, if you want to use the item you are still allowed to.

I have no problem with a match having a certain rule set, in fact I am very much in favor of this because I feel it adds individual flavor to the match. I just wouldn't like to have someone try to make an all encompassing rule that would cover every match.

[ArmdCtzn]

I don't like mandatory reloads for anything, including rifle. I like reloads to be necessary due to the stage itself. It is difficult to design an interesting stage with more than thirty rifle rounds required on many ranges, even more so 40 or 60. Designing a stage with enough shots to require a reload with the rifle would be much easier with a thirty-round limit. Limiting rifle capacity to thirty rounds in tactical would just make the occasional mag change within a stage more likely. I think a mag change on the rifle now and then would be an interesting addition, and a useful skill to encourage. It certainly wouldn't be in every stage, and not even every match. I think it would be a pretty subtle change that would often not even be noticed, which makes the strong reactions against it surprising to me. I'm not particularly strongly in favor of restricting rifle mags, I don't see it as that big of a deal either way. If a MD chooses to have such a restriction I will see it as an interesting new challenge, now I get to plan a rifle reload during my stage prep. If not, that's fine too, one less thing to think about, although that kind of planning is part of what makes three gun fun for me.