Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Why not limit rifle rounds?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 174
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Limiting the number of rounds in the start mag is the way to go. For example, a house clearing stage where the shooter starts with 10 in the rifle and can decide where he/she transitions from rifle to pistol. maybe require retention of the rifle to encourage sling utilization skill. An el Presidente 3 gun stage is also a good stage. Shoot the paper body with pistol, heads with rifle and have some steel for the shotgun (or other paper targets for slugs). Fast, high round count and easy set-up. Put all 3 guns on a table and let the shooter decide the order.

You ORSA boys up fo dat next month?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like the idea of limiting magazine size. Just think, if we would have had 30rd mouse gun limits all along, there wouldn't be any 47rd Pmags, or CCW couplers or some of the other competition oriented equipment. I think of 3gun as a proving ground for equipment ideas, some of which filter into Military and Police applications.

If you like 20 rd rifle mag limits, come on out any shoot Heavy Metal.

Hurley

Edited because I can't spel.

Edited by HRider
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If i hear any more comparisons of tactical to our military i'm gonna puke. Our marines are already using open rifles (2 optics). The term "tactical" should be reserved for the LEO folks and the gear they use.

And yes, i carried an m-14 without optics, no bipod, and a 20 round mag...actually a bunch of them. Tactical is a misnomer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand the hate of monopodding. Can someone say why?

Need to come up with a way to differentiate between open and tactical. A bipod and monopodding is almost the same. 2nd optic...who cares.

I find that my bi pod is more stable than mono poding. I am against not letting people mono pod its a practical technique that works in the game and in real life. I see no reason to artifically make people not do it. If you want more of a difference between Open and Tactical do the following. No muzzle brakes allowed only flash hiders, make a mag length restriction just like in pistol and make it for double colume mags and set it at where a P mag is right now.

Pat

Edited by Alaskapopo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geez, never figured I'd see so many three gunners in favor of adding arbitrary limits to Divisions. The funny thing is at least one or two is opposed to an arbitrary 10 round limit in Production, but cool with it for the rifle? Can some of you guys go over to the 3# Production Trigger thread and support that? I just don't see the reason to try and make Tactical Scope "different" than Open. The Division doesn't need any help gaining people, if we're talking about TS. If we're talking about Open then why should we try to piss off a group of TS shooters to try and "help" Open. I'm pretty sure a fair amount of TS shooters have gone out an purchased C-Mags, Nordic, CA Comp, SureFire high cap mags. I know dang near all of them have muzzle brakes. I'm pretty sure from the USPSA side there's not a lot of desire to piss any more people off this month.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think tac optics should be left alone. I could see a mag length restriction in limited, if the majority of the limited shooters agree on it. At least two matches I know of don't allow limited to use big sticks. Honestly though, it does not matter to me, I have been beaten by guys shooting big and little mags and it always feels very similar. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our local, non-USPSA (independent rules) matches often require mag changes. Sometimes the stage is 'choreographed' (similar to IDPA) and requires the reload at a certain point. Other times, the stage requires a reload after the first shot yet before the last shot. With the availability of magazines that contain lots of rounds... stage round count doesn't seem particularly effective in forcing mag changes (although it can force an equipment race - Nordic, Surefire, Beta, etc.).

Best,

ac

I have advocated this many times. Glad to see someone else onboard. I think a rule ALLOWING, not mandating a reload after engaging the first target and prior to engaging the last target would go a long way towards testing shooters and their skill sets. Reloading a rifle IS a skill that we should test and setting up a standards at a big match SUCKS. This in no way affects freestyle. You still move through the COF as you always dis, you just have to make one reload on some courses. I wouldn't want this to be a requirement across the board and I think Open should probably be exempt. But Tac Iron and Tac Optics and their counterparts in Heavy Metal should have this requirement AVAILABLE to the stage designers and builders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim, I like the way you think, but I think that gets confusing. I've never seen a "stage" requirement specific only to certain "divisions".

I'd hate to make Open reload. I think it takes away from the "Open" mantra, but I would like to see rifle reloading in the other divisions. I'm still trying to figure out a way to do it leaving Open as Open.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim, I like the way you think, but I think that gets confusing. I've never seen a "stage" requirement specific only to certain "divisions".

I'd hate to make Open reload. I think it takes away from the "Open" mantra, but I would like to see rifle reloading in the other divisions. I'm still trying to figure out a way to do it leaving Open as Open.

Limit the mag length in tac and limited to a certain length and leave open unrestricted. Then make a course of fire be 34 rifle rounds. Even if its a 1A 2 anywhere match just hide the A zone on enough targets so that even shooting 1A on some of the targets might give enough rounds to shoot it without a reload. If you do it without a mag change you saved X number of seconds. Miss a couple of those A's and you added penalties, and was it worth not doing a mag change?

I don't mind doing mag changes at all in a match or stage but I don't want to be the only one doing so. If I want to push it so I don't have to do a mag change then that choice is mine, and that is the freestyle aspect and gives options.

I like options, and I like being able to choose wether or not taking a risk is worth it.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I rarely have to do a mag change with my rifle during a stage.

Maybe your stages need more rounds? :sight: Although I do not like shooting an array twice or more just to get the round count up. Standards for long guns always are talked about, and generally are handgun stages converted to long gun. Might not be a bad way to toss in a speed stage.

Besides the novelty value, this is a reason why I love the idea of the WWII Division at TX Multigun/LaRue...everyone's rifle only holds 8 rounds.

Well, there are some other options for Texas Multigun WW2 rifles. Semi-auto BAR which is 20 rounds or M1919 which is as many as you want to link. :devil: Technically, the bolt-action Enfields are legal, and those hold 10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't be upset if they limited mag capacity in irons or optics to 30, to somewhat differentiate from open. I'm not going to advocate it either, because I don't think it is necessary.

I do think opposition to monopodding is senseless. A magazine is necessary to the function of the rifle. If you can use the mag to obtain a more stable shooting platform... who wouldn't?

Making comps only legal for open is a horrible idea. If only because every single person who has built a dedicated 3-gun rifle put a comp on it for a flat shooting rifle. If someone wants to shoot with a flash hider... more power to them. This is a game... it doesn't need to mimic 'tactical' situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geez, never figured I'd see so many three gunners in favor of adding arbitrary limits to Divisions. The funny thing is at least one or two is opposed to an arbitrary 10 round limit in Production, but cool with it for the rifle?

30 rounds isn't arbitrary. 30 rounds is largely the standard magazine length for an AR15. Beyond that and you start spending more money on the latest gizmo to add rounds to a factory mag, welding mags together, or spending big bucks on Surefire mags with questionable reliability, or whatever else is the latest greatest...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of our local matches mandate a mag change after first/before last shot.

I say just run a standard Pmag or standard 30 rounder. If it hold 31 no biggie, most people use the longer mag as a bipod. Learn to shoot in weird positions and have fun.

After all this really is about fun. If they crap were hitting the fan then load em all the way up!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geez, never figured I'd see so many three gunners in favor of adding arbitrary limits to Divisions. The funny thing is at least one or two is opposed to an arbitrary 10 round limit in Production, but cool with it for the rifle?

30 rounds isn't arbitrary. 30 rounds is largely the standard magazine length for an AR15. Beyond that and you start spending more money on the latest gizmo to add rounds to a factory mag, welding mags together, or spending big bucks on Surefire mags with questionable reliability, or whatever else is the latest greatest...

Really? The standard AR mag was 20 rounds. Most are 30, but all my Pmags hold 31. I also have a whole slew of very inexpensive, and expensive higher capacity magazines. What about the shooter with the Galil? Does he get to have 35 rounds in his magazine? Does the HK 91/M14 shooter only get 20? Just because you shoot an AR doesn't mean everyone does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really? The standard AR mag was 20 rounds. Most are 30, but all my Pmags hold 31. I also have a whole slew of very inexpensive, and expensive higher capacity magazines. What about the shooter with the Galil? Does he get to have 35 rounds in his magazine? Does the HK 91/M14 shooter only get 20? Just because you shoot an AR doesn't mean everyone does.

Please Chuck, 20 isn't really standard anymore, today it's short, almost everyone has 30s in an AR platform. 30 is a good number and most here seem to be in agreement that if there is a limit 30 is good. Never saw a guy with a Galil in 3 gun, they must be hanging out with all those guys who shoot .45 in Production, I guess he'd have to load light, and M14 guys generally don't shoot Tactical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really? The standard AR mag was 20 rounds. Most are 30, but all my Pmags hold 31. I also have a whole slew of very inexpensive, and expensive higher capacity magazines. What about the shooter with the Galil? Does he get to have 35 rounds in his magazine? Does the HK 91/M14 shooter only get 20? Just because you shoot an AR doesn't mean everyone does.

Please Chuck, 20 isn't really standard anymore, today it's short, almost everyone has 30s in an AR platform. 30 is a good number and most here seem to be in agreement that if there is a limit 30 is good. Never saw a guy with a Galil in 3 gun, they must be hanging out with all those guys who shoot .45 in Production, I guess he'd have to load light, and M14 guys generally don't shoot Tactical.

Well, no offense but you need to get out more. We have a guy locally that shoots a Golani (a Century Galil Clone). I'm sure there are more on the local level. Probably not so much at the National level or big matches, but the club level match why not. I've also seen more than one time a Heavy Metal shooter, shooting in Limited or Tactical because there weren't enough people for the Division. What happens in two years when Magpul comes out with the 40 round AR mag and manufacturers start selling guns with those as standard? Will we up the 30 round limit to 40 to keep up with that? I just find it funny that Production is the fastest growing Division and people want to tinker with the capacity. Tactical Scope is far and away the most popular division and people want to tinker with the capacity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just find it funny that Production is the fastest growing Division and people want to tinker with the capacity. Tactical Scope is far and away the most popular division and people want to tinker with the capacity.

I DON'T want to tinker with Production at all. In fact I'd be more in favor of a "Production" division in 3 Gun...

What I would like to do is get some reloads on the clock (except Open) without making the ROs count and without it being an odd standards stage that makes everyone cringe. If it just does not make sense to make 3gunners load 3 or 4 times in a major match, that is fine, but do you have a palatable scenario other than capacity (or length) rules?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For USPSA or IMGA? For IMGA, they just do what they want anyway. Easy fix. For USPSA, I need to think about it a bit. My thoughts would be more related to course design. Have a 30+ round course and include some ports that would make it very difficult to use a greater than 20 round magazine. Not saying reloading is bad, I'd just rather see it handled the same way we handle it with pistol by course design, not trying to force reloads where they wouldn't otherwise be required.

That said, I'm not opposed to standards stages in three gun. I'm not saying a whole bunch of them, but one a match certainly wouldn't be bad. I was just meeting with an MD yesterday that wanted to put paper at 300 yds. Be really easy to run a standards stage that would require some skill and reloads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For USPSA or IMGA? For IMGA, they just do what they want anyway. Easy fix. For USPSA, I need to think about it a bit. My thoughts would be more related to course design. Have a 30+ round course and include some ports that would make it very difficult to use a greater than 20 round magazine. Not saying reloading is bad, I'd just rather see it handled the same way we handle it with pistol by course design, not trying to force reloads where they wouldn't otherwise be required.

That said, I'm not opposed to standards stages in three gun. I'm not saying a whole bunch of them, but one a match certainly wouldn't be bad. I was just meeting with an MD yesterday that wanted to put paper at 300 yds. Be really easy to run a standards stage that would require some skill and reloads.

USPSA.

I'll tinker a bit, I do after all have 8 courses to look at, and then submit for approval for the Colorado State MG match in April.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just find it funny that Production is the fastest growing Division and people want to tinker with the capacity. Tactical Scope is far and away the most popular division and people want to tinker with the capacity.

I DON'T want to tinker with Production at all. In fact I'd be more in favor of a "Production" division in 3 Gun...

Hmmm...like maybe call it 'Mil. Std' Division...all rifles must use (US) military actions (i.e., AR10/15 or M14) with the only allowed accessories being items that have an NSN? (This would rule out most, if not all of the 1-4x scopes, but allow Aimpoint M68s, EOTechs (I think) and ACOGs, and limit mags to 20 and 30 rounders, PMAGs included).

And I think 30 rounders will remain the standard, even when MagPul and any others come out with bigger ones, as long as they remain the DoD standard. (20 rounders are standard for jump-rigged rifles for airborne ops, but that's the only place.)

Besides the novelty value, this is a reason why I love the idea of the WWII Division at TX Multigun/LaRue...everyone's rifle only holds 8 rounds.

Well, there are some other options for Texas Multigun WW2 rifles. Semi-auto BAR which is 20 rounds or M1919 which is as many as you want to link. :devil: Technically, the bolt-action Enfields are legal, and those hold 10.

Meh...'rifles' costing well north of $2k and weighing over 25 lbs are their own penalty. Now, I'm not familiar with the semi-auto versions, but as originally built, the M1919 series used 250 round, non-disintegrating belts (cloth or metal). Forget not reloading on a stage, one of those could go the entire MATCH without reloading. :roflol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FFS .. I don't pay attention to USPSA rules and arguments for a couple of months and every bad idea is coming out of wood work. Ban monopoding, magazine limits, magazine length limits (hello surefire mags). Is there something in the water? Are you trying to fix poor stage design with poor rules?

Soon I'll see USPSA rules about banning collapsible stocks, bayonet lugs, and the shoulder thingy that goes up because this stuff makes about as much sense. Why are we limiting ourselves? Why make a rule that freezes technology to 40 years ago or whenever the 30rd mag was designed? We are supposed to be the people that figure out if shit works mechanically and dynamically in the gun world, why do you want to be cowboy action shooting?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...