Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Why not limit rifle rounds?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 174
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

When everyone gets done discussing this, please make a list of matches that are going to restrict rifle mags or round count. Ill be sure and put them on my "do not attend" list.

Really? If a match that you otherwise enjoyed decided to add a rifle mag limit of thirty rounds that would be enough to keep you away? I can understand being against a rule about rifle mags, but can't see skipping a match over it. So it adds a few more mag changes, hardly noticable, much less worth missing the match over, I'd think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When everyone gets done discussing this, please make a list of matches that are going to restrict rifle mags or round count. Ill be sure and put them on my "do not attend" list.

Really? If a match that you otherwise enjoyed decided to add a rifle mag limit of thirty rounds that would be enough to keep you away? I can understand being against a rule about rifle mags, but can't see skipping a match over it. So it adds a few more mag changes, hardly noticable, much less worth missing the match over, I'd think.

The change at Rocky Mountain to prohibit Monopodding off dual mags was enough to keep me away. And I thought that was an awesome match. Just wasn't worth it to go shoot Tactical. Do what I've practiced and get bumped to Open for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When everyone gets done discussing this, please make a list of matches that are going to restrict rifle mags or round count. Ill be sure and put them on my "do not attend" list.

Really? If a match that you otherwise enjoyed decided to add a rifle mag limit of thirty rounds that would be enough to keep you away? I can understand being against a rule about rifle mags, but can't see skipping a match over it. So it adds a few more mag changes, hardly noticable, much less worth missing the match over, I'd think.

Yes, really.........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When everyone gets done discussing this, please make a list of matches that are going to restrict rifle mags or round count. Ill be sure and put them on my "do not attend" list.

Really? If a match that you otherwise enjoyed decided to add a rifle mag limit of thirty rounds that would be enough to keep you away? I can understand being against a rule about rifle mags, but can't see skipping a match over it. So it adds a few more mag changes, hardly noticable, much less worth missing the match over, I'd think.

Yes, really.........

+1

That's the only way a shooter can vote

Edited by D.Hayden
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I am agnostic about Beta mags in the Tactical divisions. As mentioned above, they were developed for the military market, so I don't buy into the "not practical" arguments... as I recall, they were rejected by the military on the basis of robustness and reliability, not bulk/weight/"practicality". I've seen enough of them go tits-up to know I won't run one, but I don't see a compelling reason to ban them. The ban at SMM3G came before I had any role in writing the rules, and, as the drum ban is now a de facto standard across many outlaw matches, I'm not inclined to try to bring them back.

To be honest, I haven't been back to SMM3G since they did away with C-Mags. I just bought one the yeat before. That was the straw that broke the camel's back and I don't go to Rio anymore.

Personally, I think the rulemakers should occasionally go back and scrub bad rules from the books. Look at it this way--what StealthyBlagga said is basically that the ban on C-Mags has effectively become "common law" in 3-gun.

But just because it's common law doesn't mean we have to keep it. For instance, in many cities, there are still laws on the books that outlaw the herding of cattle or other livestock down main street. Now, there was a time when this made sense, but today, nobody in their right mind is going to run a herd of sheep down Main St. in nearly any American city (because what farmer would want to lose even one livestock to an automobile accident?), so the law should probably be repealed and expunged to keep up with the times.

Today, we've got Surefire 60-round mags and 100-round mags that are technologically and technically superior to C-Mags, so we don't need that rule any more. Scrub it from the books, and if anyone feels the need to bring one to a match, by all means, let 'em. They'll at least feel welcome to go to the match (instead of damaging goodwill like SMM3G did with Chuck), and then they'll find out on their own, without getting pissed at the MDs, that they really don't want to run a C-Mag in the first place.

We're at a time when 3-gun could really blow up and gain a huge amount of interest. There's TV coverage, a group of 3-gun celebrities, corporate sponsorships, big prizes, and gun magazines are writing about 3-gun (finally). Now's not the time to be pushing arbitrary rules on the members and newbies and destroying goodwill.

Edited by dchang0
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually don't think Stealthy Blagga is right about the ban on C-Mags either. I don't shoot any matches that have that stipulation in Tactical. And I shoot a lot of IMGA matches. It might be at some matches, but certainly not the majority. Not saying there aren't a couple, I just don't know them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually don't think Stealthy Blagga is right about the ban on C-Mags either. I don't shoot any matches that have that stipulation in Tactical. And I shoot a lot of IMGA matches. It might be at some matches, but certainly not the majority. Not saying there aren't a couple, I just don't know them.

Rocky Mountain, Superstition and Northwest Multigun Challenge prohibit drum mags in Tactical. I have not checked other matches.

Doug

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually don't think Stealthy Blagga is right about the ban on C-Mags either. I don't shoot any matches that have that stipulation in Tactical. And I shoot a lot of IMGA matches. It might be at some matches, but certainly not the majority. Not saying there aren't a couple, I just don't know them.

Rocky Mountain, Superstition and Northwest Multigun Challenge prohibit drum mags in Tactical. I have not checked other matches.

Doug

See three I don't shoot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am planning on getting into three gun this gun, but i think it would be hard to limit the rounds in a mag. are you going to say 20 rounds max in a mag and force everyone to go out and buy a 20 round mag or let 30 rounders in. Then the ro has to count rounds fired, not saying that anyone would cheat, but if you forget how many where in there and add a few to many. might get a little confusing. uspsa has made it pretty easy with 10 rounds for production and then then saying x number of inches on limited mags and x on open mags, stuff as many as you can get in there.

Not sure if three gun has those type or rules but that would be one way of doing it, but still not practical

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When everyone gets done discussing this, please make a list of matches that are going to restrict rifle mags or round count. Ill be sure and put them on my "do not attend" list.

Really? If a match that you otherwise enjoyed decided to add a rifle mag limit of thirty rounds that would be enough to keep you away? I can understand being against a rule about rifle mags, but can't see skipping a match over it. So it adds a few more mag changes, hardly noticable, much less worth missing the match over, I'd think.

Yes, really.........

I dont shoot that many matches , but yes it would.

Just the start of the "slippery slope" rules.

That's one of the MAIN reasons I don't shoot the alphabet matches , went to one , had some ? ?'s about penalties , got an 80+ page rule book :surprise: Sorry not for me , I will shoot one on occasion , but just because there's nothing better close , I don't worry about the penalties , I shoot it the way it seems logical to me.

BTW ; My wife tells me quite often that I'm an outlaw :sight:

Edited by toothandnail
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You must be talking about the same 80 page rule book that the non alphabet matches use each and every time they have a problem on a stage that is not addressed in their 2 page set of rules.......

Nope , NEVER seen that in an "outlaw match" , I'm sure it happens cause there's probably some "rule lawyers" shooting them as well . I try to go to the ones the "rule lawyers" don't ;)

But I do read on here about adding more rules to 80+ pages , many arguing about the definitions of specific words in said rules , when you're(not you CB)arguing over what the meaning of "is" is , or the "level the playing field" discussions , I want NO part of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have no problem with an 80-page rule book - if it was consistent among all the major matches, and was representative of what the 3-gun shooting majority felt was appropriate.

Getting back to the original discussion, I agree that a 30-round mag* rule (*limiting shooters to a mag of 30-round capacity) would be appropriate in Lim/Tac Optics. There should be no specific exclusion to monopoding...

Edited by Xfactor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, I don't care if a CoF calls for an empty gun start, a reload somewhere between first and last shot, at most NN rounds in the magazine, whatever... Everyone in my division would be shooting the same rules, and that's fine. Also, living on the East Coast, I frankly do not have enough opportunities to attend big 3-gun matches to "vote with my wallet" on something that just isn't that important to how I shoot a match.

I was, however, signed up for FNH (a great match, by the way!) and with the talk of magazine limits there, it wasn't the 30 rounds that bothered me. It was the vagaries of implementation---is a MagPul capable of holding 31 illegal? Is an Arredondo baseplate or Ranger Tab out because of a length? And so on. I did not, and do not, care about the number of shots between reloads, but I sure don't want to find out that I have to buy all new magazines just to shoot a match. That was my potential beef with that set up.

It's also why, of all the variations of Tactical rules I have seen, the only ones that really cheese me off are the ones against supporting on the magazine. The way I see it, equipment rules should determine what I am allowed to run, but as the shooter I, and I alone, get to decide how to use my allowed equipment, within the bounds of safety. Tell me I can't use a K-9? Okay, but then I will lean my rail or sling stud into the port. Tell me I can't use a bipod? Fine, I'll rest on the mag. Tell me that coupled mags are allowed? Great, but it will end up on the ground holding the rifle up.

Again, I haven't yet shot a lot of big 3-gun matches, but the rules (where they exist) of prohibiting coupled-mag support are the only ones I can think of that go beyond telling me what I can use to telling me how I can use it. The best part about 3-gun is that you can choose from a whole bunch of different ways to shoot the stages, to achieve the best possible score based on shooter skill and available equipment. If I wanted aribtrary rules on how I am allowed to solve the marksmanship problem presented, I'd still be shooting a lot of IDPA...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe everyone else goes to the bathroom when rules questions arise. I have yet to see a 2 page set of rules address range equipment failure but every time it takes place the remedy as set out in that "awful" other fule book is followed. I have yet to see a 2 page set of rules address range commands but I have yet to see a RO ever use any other commands other than the ones mandated by the ones everyone seens to hate. Need I go further?

But here is how I see the notion that we should be able to limit rifle rounds, we open the door for other stuff. If we open the door to this, why not limit pistol and shotgun rounds? Will matches be better if we limit the role of equipment? How much fun will it be if we say magazines have to be loaded under the clock? Making us start with a magazine out of a weapon is one thing. Making us load the magazine under the clock is not going to be a lot of fun.

The question posed at the beginning of this thread is important since it really illustrates how 3gun development is hampered by not having a central organization to administer the sport with one set of rules. Shooters and match organizers are going to be more secure if they know what the rules are for each and every match. And while it is true that the independent match organizers can "tweet" rules for their own purposes (by way of example banning clinched mags) it escapes me as to how that "helps" a match. When matches use rules outside the norm, negative comments get posted here and other places.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I have yet to see a 2 page set of rules address range equipment failure but every time it takes place the remedy as set out in that "awful" other fule book is followed. I have yet to see a 2 page set of rules address range commands but I have yet to see a RO ever use any other commands other than the ones mandated by the ones everyone seens to hate. ...

This is a fair comment. Some rules are growing to address these issues, but mostly still focus on the areas of divergence from USPSA rules. This is how it should be - we take what works, and fix what does not work. The essence of the outlaw match.

...

The question posed at the beginning of this thread is important since it really illustrates how 3gun development is hampered by not having a central organization to administer the sport with one set of rules....

I respectfully disagree and submit the reverse is true. Having some monolithic, big government organization hand down these rules to the little people is exactly what we DON'T need in 3-gun right now. USPSA gave us the "maximum of 10 shells in Open" rule, which is almost universally reviled and just one of the reasons USPSA multi-gun is so marginalized. Outlaw matches test out different rules, and these matches succeed or fail based on how competitors feel about the rule changes. I know that I am not wild about the "no monopodding with cinched mags" rule either, so I vote with my wallet. I don't need USPSA shoving such rules down my throat, thanks all the same.

Edited by StealthyBlagga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Need I go further?

I don't understand why you would. You don't get anything from winning the argument, and you aren't going to change anybody's mind any more than they are going to change your's. If there is something on that I am missing, please PM me. If not, lets stay on topic (and see if this thread will ever die).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All rules, no matter from where they originate should have as one of their base tenets enforceability. Any rule that cannot be enforced in a fair and consistent manner is by definition a BAD RULE.

Due to the nature of Rifle Magazines (they hold a lot of rounds, some times quite a lot) it is difficult to limit the capacity. USPSA Pistol only does this in its lower capacity divisions. In Open and Limited, the rule limits not the capacity, but the length of the magazine.

Since there are so many variables with regard to rifle mags and base pads already in the marketplace, this is probably as it should be, a non-starter. We then move on to limiting the type of magazine. Should drums be allowed in Tactical and Limited? or should they be relegated only to Open? How do we keep a large number of newer and middle level shooters from feeling that if they don't spend gazillions on a mag that they are outgunned? Simple, at least to me. Allow, don't mandate, don't require, but allow the Stage designers to throw in a mandatory reload after engaging the first target and prior to engaging the last target.

We already allow unloaded starts and we allow weapons to be staged remotely from the shooter. I don't see where this is a problem.

As for limiting SG rounds in Open, again, it is OPEN, what part don't we get. However if you want a three foot long tube you have to keep the gun in that configuration for the entire match, same for the X-rail, you can't take it off if it is too heavy or too fat for a particular stage. Deal with it.

Stage design MAY address some situations, but since our customers come in all sizes from barely 5-0 to well over 6-6 and from 100 pounds soaking wet to weights I won't guess at, we have to be careful that we don't make it so that certain people as opposed to certain platforms have difficulty getting into a position.

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Included a mandatory reload before the last shot in a stage this past weekend. Didn't affect the good shooters, they all did it on the move between positions with no noticeable lack of time. Some of the newer shooters, forgot and ended up doing a standing reload or getting a procedural for not reloading. Couple of people fumbled with mags, but overall it mostly tested your ability to execute your plan and not forget the reload. I won't be including it in future stages at the club.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When everyone gets done discussing this, please make a list of matches that are going to restrict rifle mags or round count. Ill be sure and put them on my "do not attend" list.

+1. Unless the prize table is really big because I only shoot for the money. I don't enjoy the shooting part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...