Why not limit rifle rounds?

[ArmdCtzn]

I rarely have to do a mag change with my rifle during a stage. One thirty-round mag will get me through pretty much any stage I've run into at the five different ranges where I shoot local matches. Why is there no limit to how many rifle rounds we start with? We limit shotgun capacity. I think it would be nice to have more rifle mag changes required.

It seems odd that I can only put nine shells in my shotgun, but I can put a Beta mag on my rifle. Do any matches ever limit rifles to 20 round mags? Why not? I think I'd kinda dig it. What say you?

[ac4wordplay]

Our local, non-USPSA (independent rules) matches often require mag changes. Sometimes the stage is 'choreographed' (similar to IDPA) and requires the reload at a certain point. Other times, the stage requires a reload after the first shot yet before the last shot. With the availability of magazines that contain lots of rounds... stage round count doesn't seem particularly effective in forcing mag changes (although it can force an equipment race - Nordic, Surefire, Beta, etc.).

Best,

ac

[Benelli Chick]

I assume you're talking about "Tactical." A number of matches limit in He-Man etc.

Some matches (RM3G) Say no Beta mags in anything but Open.

JJ would like to limit to 30 rounds...but I keep arguing with him.

We've had good success with change your magazine after first shot, before last shot (especially in local matches). It's very hard to force a mag change any other way without saying none of these mags etc. Look at the bruhaha that poor Larry stirred up by limiting mag size at FNH!!!

If Eddie R were still around, I think he'd be willing to limit it, because he didn't believe in resting on your magazine at all. Elbows or nothing. But, I think a lot of people are using the magazine to get them a little higher off the ground with a little less wobble. (I am one of them!)

Anyway, using stage descriptions to make people use the rifle mag changing skill are pretty effective and easy. I've seen some matches that limit rounds in a mag, to force the mag change AND ammo management!

My $.02!

Denise

[MarkCO]

I think a 30 round magazine limit should be in place in Limited and Tac-Scope divisions, with Open being open and HM divisions being the currently widely used 20 round limits.

Even if you do that, there are a few issues. Some PMags will hold 31, and if you say no more than "30" of "32" in the gun, ROs have to count and even with their shoes off, they can only get to 20, which is why HM is limited at 20 (kidding of course). Seriosuly, counting rifles rounds, while maintaining safety and watching for hits like some matches do would make it very difficult. Therefore, the "Larry box" concept has validity as a "not to exceed size" for those two classes. I would never want to see 30 round mags prohibited, and counting, even to 20 is a PITA, so therefore, a 30 round "size" limit does make sense and I beleive should be in place. You still have to have courses that will force at least a few rounds more than 30 in some manner in order to get the desired effect of reloads into play. Also, this kind of rule would be of benefit primairly to the newer shooters in terms of limiting costs and equipment testing/verification. All in all, much more benefit than drawback from my perspective. I have made such a recomendation (through my AD) for a change in the USPSA MG rules.

[Outsydlooknin75]

I have a Nordic extended pmag for one reason and one reason only. So I didn't have to reload on a 32 round course that didn't have a good place to reload and why should I give up those few seconds to someone who isn't doing a mag change.

If the is a size limit I'm fine with that but I see no reason to put myself at a disadvantage intentionally when I don't have to.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[Bryan 45]

I personally don't like mandatory anything within the COF description- and that includes mandatory reloads. But, I do enjoy the max magazine capacity in Heavy Metal. If I were the kind of guy that shot little rifles, I would support a "30 round mag" restriction for all but open. Yes, some P-mags will hold 31, but it's still just a 30 round magazine. If someone wants to trim springs and followers to try to squeeze an extra round in it, I say let them risk all the malfunctions that go with it.

I would support the size restriction more to restrict "extended monopods" than forcing the reload. I think monopoding is a great tool to increase hit probability, but using a 48 round mag on a 22 round COF is a bit too much artificial support, IMO.

But until a rule changes, it's all good!

[SinistralRifleman]

If you want to test certain skills the only way to do it is to mandate it in the stage description. I don't like it on every stage necessarily, but it has value.

Particularly when the mag capacity is limited so its a virgina count stage, or getting more magazines requires added physical tasks like a relay race type stage, crawling through a cooper tunnel, or looting a dummy's pouches for ammo.

Edited December 28, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[LPatterson]

I think Limited should be limited to 20 to eliminate Monopodding. This is not war which means throwing lots of rounds downrange, this is supposed to be a game with scoring involved. Of course it might mean more if I were an active multigunner, last time I shot it was called 3 gun and involved pistol/shotgun or pistol/rifle.

[Langenator]

Besides the novelty value, this is a reason why I love the idea of the WWII Division at TX Multigun/LaRue...everyone's rifle only holds 8 rounds. No monopods, and lots of reloads.

In all seriousness, wouldn't any equipment restrictions, whether for magazines or anything else, be up to the MD? My local match doesn't allow the Surefire quad stacks, but I'm not sure about the extensions on the Pmags. Personally, since most of my experience is with High Power and Olympic-style small bore, I find bans on the use of slings annoying, but it is what it is.

Let the MD decide what s/he wants to allow, and go from there. If enough people don't like it, change it for the next go-round.

[Corey]

I have a couple mags that will hold more than 30 rounds, but honestly havent used them much. Usually a 30-rounder is sufficient. Instead of forcing reloads at certain places, just limit the magazine capacity/length and then place enough targets on the stage that force a reload somewhere.

[AR Gunner]

What say you?

I think mandatory mag changes are too artificial. Feel free to change mags as much as you like.

[kellyn]

If you want to force mag changes have a standards stage. (Gasp!!!)

Given that 30 plus round magazines are easily and readily available, I'm mildly against any sort of cap on mag limit in Tac or Tac Limited/1X/Iron Sight/Limited division. Stage design will easily nullify any advantage that high cap mags have anyway.

Making 20 rounds the limit to prevent monopodding will simply make me build up the bottom of the 20 rd magazines.

[outerlimits]

Or make monopoding a procedural per shot

[ericm]

I have been to, and administered, many matches where the issues of capacity and "forced" magazines changes are easily tested on a stage-by-stage basis. The stage designers NEED to THINK about what skills they are trying to test.

No other restrictions on magazine capacity are needed, in my opinion. The rules that most matches use now are sufficient.

Selected Examples:

1. Inaugural 2006 Midwest 3 Gun Championship: A multigun stage started with 10 rounds only in rifle, then reload how and with what you wish...ALL CLASSES.

2. 2011 High Plains Carbine Championship: A quick down-n-dirty rifle hoser stage with windows and lots of movement, EXCEPT ALL magazines could be loaded with a maximum of 10 rounds each...ALL CLASSES.

3. A Local match (distant past): all shooting had to be done standing on different wooden pallets (shooting boxes, if you will). Any time you stepped off of a pallet, you had to do a rifle reload.....ALL CLASSES.

Many more examples exist.

ericm

[George]

If you want to force mag changes have a standards stage. (Gasp!!!)

Given that 30 plus round magazines are easily and readily available, I'm mildly against any sort of cap on mag limit in Tac or Tac Limited/1X/Iron Sight/Limited division. Stage design will easily nullify any advantage that high cap mags have anyway.

Making 20 rounds the limit to prevent monopodding will simply make me build up the bottom of the 20 rd magazines.

Ayup, just add a "Presidente" type standard stage with mandated flat-footed reload if you want to test reload skills. Mandating a reload on a field course just doesn't work for me, nor does mag capacity or size limits.

[ericm]

Or make monopoding a procedural per shot

......go take up NRA High Power, no monopodding there, you also get to wear that nifty "practical" coat

Really, people........PRACTICAL SHOOTING.

ericm

[OPENB]

I don't understand the hate of monopodding. Can someone say why?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Or make monopoding a procedural per shot

Why all the hate against monopoding? It simply makes sense to use the most stable shooting position you can. I grin everytime I see a "purist" who insists on shooting prone unsupported - just because that's what the Army taught during the Cold War doesn't make it smart.

[outerlimits]

I don't understand the hate of monopodding. Can someone say why?

Need to come up with a way to differentiate between open and tactical. A bipod and monopodding is almost the same. 2nd optic...who cares.

[Tizzle]

The Marine Corps told me resting the rifle on the magazine would cause malfunctions and that was why it wasn't allowed there. Seems to work fine in competition though and since those days I have learned a huge number of ways to improve my shooting, which was already exceptionally good for the Corps. It seems to me that some people aren't willing to try new techniques and when they get beat by those new technique they scream for a rule change. Shooting to save you and your brothers lives is a lot different than shooting for time on a stage in a 3 gun match but some don't seem to get it. Hate to give the Army props but I love how they use what they learn in competition shooting and then teach those "shooting" skills to the boys that already know how to employ them "tactically."

[Benelli Chick]

There was a time when resting on the magazine caused jams. I sure wouldn't want to be in a war with a jammed rifle. Now, the manufacturers have dealt with that and it doesn't cause jams.

I for one, have a heck of a time with long range shots without monopodding. Yes, it adds some stabilization and for me, takes some of the weight of the rifle off my muscles. I don't think it's anywhere NEAR the support of a bipod. The bipod is out on the end helping to keep the muzzle steady. When I'm sighting in and use a bipod, the dot in my scope doesn't wiggle hardly at all. When I'm monopodding, it does.

But, I don't hate monopodding. It saves me sometimes. I'm just weak in my upper body and that support helps so much. I can tell the difference if the position is such that I have to support the whole rifle myself up on my elbows because I need to get it up over grass or dirt or whatever. My arms are killing me afterwards.

I'm not completely weak. I can hit a 10inch round offhand at 100-150 yards...MOST of the time, even on the clock, but not monopodding or having a sandbag or a ledge or something at 400 yards, is pretty darn painful for me!

So, I really appreciate it! When I shot Eddie's matches where we weren't allowed to monopod on the standards stages...well, it was pretty darm ugly and made me so sore. Plus, when my muscles get tired, I shake...and good grief, the figure 8 wobble plus muscle shaking...my dot would like it was participating in a psychotic sing-along. (For those of you who are too young to know what I'm talking about...oh well!)

So, not hate here! I understand the limiting ammo in rifle like the other divisions, but I just don't see the huge need. But, hey...I do like my 48 rounder for running and gunning...or in my case walking/wandering and gunning!

Denise

[boomfab]

Yeah! Ban monopodding AND require everyone to shoot with a weaver stance! That'll make 3gun super tactical!

[badchad]

If I had my druthers I'd limit magazines to 30 rounds for Tactical, but I would continue to allow monopoding, as both seem practical to me.

[AlamoShooter]

Are you guys running for Political office some place ? When did More Rules make something that is not broken better?

If you want to test a persons ability to change mags than include a short standards stage , But for goodness sake don't try to force any thing on any one in any events.

If a mag change was part of a stage like an El Presidenta the mag change time would be a large part of the stage score. The shooters that train hard will do better.

But what I see is Rules trying to create limits to even a playing field for shooters that "Do Want to Train" That will not take the time to train.

What next shorten a marathon so the runners don;t have to train

Soap Box off

[MILDOTS]

Yeah! Ban monopodding AND require everyone to shoot with a weaver stance! That'll make 3gun super tactical!

As I recall the term tactical optics was used to differentiate between military scopes and sporting scopes in SOF matches. It allowed the people with less than perfect eyesight to compete with the younger crowed. I purchased my first trijicon so that I could compete. I first started mono podding during these matches.

I notice that the military over in the sand box use bi-pods and I am sure they use the highest mag capacity that they can get. As I have heard before from a

Police officer "it ain't tactical if they are not shooting back'. In shooting your are taught to get the most stable position you can get why would you want to

outlaw that? Everyone is capable of bipoding so it is not an unfair advantage just an intelligent solution to a problem.