Why not limit rifle rounds?

[SMSI]

I must be missing something. The easy way, and the way I have seen it done often enough, is to specify a limited number of rounds in the rifle at the start. And have more targets presented than that #. That way no rules are changed and no equipment is outlawed. in fact, the re-load is not legally mandatory, although it effectively is. It is still freestyle.

[Jim Norman]

And the difference between mandating in the WSB that you only load X to start and mandating that after engaging T1 and prior to engaging T-Last that you reload is?????

[SMSI]

Semantics. but there is a lot of that going around. it sounds more freestylish.

[Jim Norman]

By mandating loading X you will be to some point mandating WHERE the reload is going to occur. At the very least you know it will occur no later than Y. My way, all you know is that you have one reload to perform somewhere and somewhen in the COF. I personally feel it is more 'freestylish' this way.

[ArmdCtzn]

By mandating loading X you will be to some point mandating WHERE the reload is going to occur. At the very least you know it will occur no later than Y. My way, all you know is that you have one reload to perform somewhere and somewhen in the COF. I personally feel it is more 'freestylish' this way.

The reason I don't like this is that I think many people would just drop the mag at the beep and make the change then, or after taking one shot if

the WSB required it after the first shot.

[Jim Norman]

OK, so they drop the mag at the beep, procedural not following the WSB otherwise, they had to acquire and engage at least one target prior to the reload. It may or may not be advantageous to reload then,or it might be half way through the COF and every shooter gets to make that determination.

[HRider]

If the original intent was to make people sharpen their reloading skills, what difference does it make if they reload at the beep or 30seconds later? They are still reloading on the clock.

Hurley

[Jim Norman]

The difference as I see it is that at the beep without even raising the rifle they drop the mag and begin a reload whereas what I propose has the shooter engaging a target and likely moving off the start position to reload. This injects more required skill confidence into the reload than a standing start drop it and go. It also retains freestyle.

Having the shooter load 11 rounds or 5 rounds what ever and shooting the gun dry can also work in some very specific stage scenarios assuming we are doing scenario driven stages, otherwise we simply are telling the shooter to reload at a specific point in the COF unless of course he misses a shot.

[rvb]

Is it more "freestyle" to dictate when to load, eg after 1st/before last shot?

Or is it more "freestyle" to dictate the equipment, eg how many rounds are in the mag or size of mag, then say go solve the shooting problem?

As an analogy, in production pistol, it would be like saying sure, use whatever mag you want, but you have to reload 3 times prior to the last shot... even limiting the rounds in only the starting mag has more appeal.

There is an enforcement issue (size of mag? ROs counting rounds, etc) that's not an easy problem to solve, but conceptually I like the idea of limiting rifle rounds. But that's me, and I enjoy production division for that very reason. Reloading adds a challenge, and opportunity to flub, and helps separate the level of shooters. But I'll point out even open pistol has a mag restriction.

I think currently there exists an open-style equipment race for rifle capacity (ie beta's and surefire mags) in the non-open division.

I haven't been an active 3-gunner for some time. I want to get back into it, and have put together a new AR for that reason. I know I can get back w/ my existing 30 rounders, but I also know at some point I'm going to need to invest in some surefire's or beta, and reloading practice is a low priority.

-rvb

Edited January 13, 2012 by rvb

[Jim Norman]

I understand the idea that limiting rounds overall in mags might be more freestyle than requiring or allowing a requirement for a reload. However, requiring a reload as I have outlined does not eliminate any current equipment, does not stifle any equipment innovation that may come down the road, does not require the RO to measure or count, does not even require the shooter to count or measure.

As an alternate I have no problem allowing the Stage designer to start the shooter with a downloaded magazine and stage the remaining mags downrange so as to discourage the reload before the first shot issue.

All of the above would affect all divisions and no equipment and unlike a mouse port in a corner where only a 130 pound skinny kid could get the options listed do not preclude a much more rotund shooter from getting into the position.

Hey, we are required to shoot from 'here' and 'there' so leaving the shooting area to find a better place to engage a target from is not an option in a match, nor can we blow out a new shooting port with a small explosive charge or take an ax to a wall or...

[rvb]

I understand the idea that limiting rounds overall in mags might be more freestyle than requiring or allowing a requirement for a reload. However, requiring a reload as I have outlined does not eliminate any current equipment,

Hi Jim,

I know you understand what I was saying about being more freestyle. You're idea isn't bad. The benefit, IMO, to going the extra mile and limiting mags/rounds in mags is it eliminates the equipment race. Just requiring a reload in a WSB doesn't keep me from needing the capacity in the next bay.

Such a rule might eliminate some mags from use, but it also precludes having to spend several hundred dollars on just a couple of mags to be competitive. Save that for OPEN, which is the division that should be driving that kind of innovation/capacity (which I don't believe the games lead to the innovation of the beta or surefire mags regardless).

-rvb

[MILDOTS]

This conversation was originally started in '94 by the Clinton administration. I didn't think it made any sense then and I still don't. If you want limited mag capacity you could always move to California. Most rifle stages that I have ever shot always present ample opportunities for a mag change while moving.Evey weapons system has limitations. Pistol the mag capacity is approximately 20 rounds. Shotgun is 8 to 10 rounds and rifle 30 plus. I do not understand why we want to artificially try to level the playing field in mag capacity.

IMO we are looking for a solution to a non existent problem. We need a poll.

[Jim Norman]

Not presented by me as a filed leveling rule, but rather to introduce a challenge into the stage. Reloading on the clock while trying not to fubar your run.

I have to look into the old singlestack snail drums and see if they are under 170mm in length. Might be interesting. ! 50 round 1911

[ArmdCtzn]

Limiting rifle capacity has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. How would it level the playing field? Everybody can buy high capacity mags, most probably already have them unless they live in a ban state. It is about adding a different challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and it is a skill that is very practical. Some rules may be about a futile attempt to level the playing field, but this certainly isn't. If you have a 60-round mag and I have a 60-round mag, or we are both limited to 30, we're level either way, at least in that respect.

[mpeltier]

Limiting rifle capacity has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. How would it level the playing field? Everybody can buy high capacity mags, most probably already have them unless they live in a ban state. It is about adding a different challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and it is a skill that is very practical. Some rules may be about a futile attempt to level the playing field, but this certainly isn't. If you have a 60-round mag and I have a 60-round mag, or we are both limited to 30, we're level either way, at least in that respect.

So you would like to see this mag limit in all rifle divisions? I.E. open, Tac optic, limited etc.

[ArmdCtzn]

Limiting rifle capacity has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. How would it level the playing field? Everybody can buy high capacity mags, most probably already have them unless they live in a ban state. It is about adding a different challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and it is a skill that is very practical. Some rules may be about a futile attempt to level the playing field, but this certainly isn't. If you have a 60-round mag and I have a 60-round mag, or we are both limited to 30, we're level either way, at least in that respect.

So you would like to see this mag limit in all rifle divisions? I.E. open, Tac optic, limited etc.

Absolutely not. I've said many times in this thread that this would only apply to tactical divisions. Open is open, have at it.

[Alaskapopo]

How hard would it be to make a magazine length gage for 30 round mags?

Pat

[mpeltier]

Limiting rifle capacity has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. How would it level the playing field? Everybody can buy high capacity mags, most probably already have them unless they live in a ban state. It is about adding a different challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and it is a skill that is very practical. Some rules may be about a futile attempt to level the playing field, but this certainly isn't. If you have a 60-round mag and I have a 60-round mag, or we are both limited to 30, we're level either way, at least in that respect.

So you would like to see this mag limit in all rifle divisions? I.E. open, Tac optic, limited etc.

Absolutely not. I've said many times in this thread that this would only apply to tactical divisions. Open is open, have at it.

You also said "to add a differant challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and its a skill that is very practical". With this train of thought why would you only apply this to tac-optic? Would you not want open shooters to have those opportunities as well. As has been said before, you don't need to make an equipment change to do this........

[Chuck Anderson]

How hard would it be to make a magazine length gage for 30 round mags?

Pat

For which 30? MagPul which actually holds 31, what about Arredondo bases, or MagPul ranger pulls. Or coupled mags. If you build the box big enough for any of those features it's big enough to slip a higher capacity mag into.

[Stlhead]

What box do you use to regulate the Heavy metal rifle mags? A similar one could be used to regulate the limited magazines. I think that the Tac optics guys should be able to use whatever ammo feed system they choose, along with the open freaks.

[Alaskapopo]

How hard would it be to make a magazine length gage for 30 round mags?

Pat

For which 30? MagPul which actually holds 31, what about Arredondo bases, or MagPul ranger pulls. Or coupled mags. If you build the box big enough for any of those features it's big enough to slip a higher capacity mag into.

I don't think that would be a problem. In limited with pistol we have 2011 mags that hold between 19 and 21 rounds depending on how they are tuned and built but they fit the gage. It limits the total rounds and creates some innovation at the same time. The innovation being how to fit as many rounds as possible in the space allotted. The limit being a practical size is set out by the box. Just my thoughts. If it works for pistol box mags will will work with rifle mags too. Just pick a length and a width with member imput and run with it. Either that or get rid of the length limitations in handgun and capacity restrictions in shotgun. It should be consistent across the board.

Pat

Edited January 14, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Jim Norman]

I think that the genie is out of the bottle and that imposing a limit on Tac Optic or Tac Optics will not be either well received by the membership of the shooting community. My only interest in this whole discussion is being able to test a skill inherent to shooting a rifle.

We have Surefire 60s and 100s, Beta-Cs, Lancer 48s. If the trend continues, I can see a semi auto SAW being used in Tac. It is already nearly impossible to design in a reload that doesn't design out larger framed shooters.

If really want a 'limited' division, how about this, M-1, Enfields, '03s, Johnsons, Pumps and 1911s with flush mags. Shoot .30-06, .308, 12g, .45 only. No optics, No dots. A whole new division with very carefully designed rules to preclude innovation beyond what was available to the USGI in WWII.

[Langenator]

If really want a 'limited' division, how about this, M-1, Enfields, '03s, Johnsons, Pumps and 1911s with flush mags. Shoot .30-06, .308, 12g, .45 only. No optics, No dots. A whole new division with very carefully designed rules to preclude innovation beyond what was available to the USGI in WWII.

Can I bring my Venezuelan FN-49 in 7mm Mauser (also available in Egyptian 8mm Mauser flavor) or my Swedish AG-42B Ljungman in 6.5 Swede? Or is anything short of .30 cal too puny? (And you left out the SVT-40 and G.43, too)

Otherwise, you just described the WWII division at LaRue this year.

[ArmdCtzn]

Limiting rifle capacity has nothing to do with leveling the playing field. How would it level the playing field? Everybody can buy high capacity mags, most probably already have them unless they live in a ban state. It is about adding a different challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and it is a skill that is very practical. Some rules may be about a futile attempt to level the playing field, but this certainly isn't. If you have a 60-round mag and I have a 60-round mag, or we are both limited to 30, we're level either way, at least in that respect.

So you would like to see this mag limit in all rifle divisions? I.E. open, Tac optic, limited etc.

Absolutely not. I've said many times in this thread that this would only apply to tactical divisions. Open is open, have at it.

You also said "to add a differant challenge and another aspect to your stage strategy, and its a skill that is very practical". With this train of thought why would you only apply this to tac-optic? Would you not want open shooters to have those opportunities as well. As has been said before, you don't need to make an equipment change to do this........

To me, open means open, any mags in any gun, any sights, etc. I don't think any restrictions of this type should be placed on open shooters.

Open shooters, to me, have a completely different philosophy and approach to the game. They are the go-fast guys with any equipment that can increase their speed, no limits.

I agree that this can mostly be addressed with stage design, but it also seems like it was almost overlooked when you consider how we treat pistol and shotgun. I wonder if some of that is just because higher capacity magazines for the rifle were not commonly encountered when our current rules came into being.

[CJW]

Maybe I am looking at this wrong way, but I feel my ability to stuff a magazine into the rifle is pretty well tested by empty-gun starts. Just my two cents...