Let's say you had a piece of land and a clean sheet of paper...

[RAZZ]

If you were going to design a new range for your local club, how many bays would you want, and how big would they be?

A private company I work for does instruction for personal protection / CCW / home defense etc., and also makes holsters and sells self defense related accesories. Currently we rent a range (and classroom) once a month to run our classes, which has worked well up to this point. For the last year or so, we have been kicking around the idea of getting our own facility to train on. Recently, the place we have been renting informed us that they will be doubling the rental fee (to the sum of some $400 per day), which will severely cut into our profit. As such, we began really looking for a new place. We went out an looked at a piece of land last week, and plan on making an offer.

Here is where you all come in. The company owner wants not only the ablility to do what we are already doing (CCW training), but would like to draw competitive shooting sports as well (USPSA, IDPA, SSCA Cowboy and 3-gun). He has left it up to me to come up with a range lay-out that would be acceptable for all the sports. The actual construction will be done by an engineer already familiar with Florida's "Best Range Practices," he just wants me to tell the engineer what we want.

So if you had a chunk of land, what would your bays be? I doubt we will ever host anything more than local monthy matches, but I'd like to have at least 8 bays so as to not limit us. Not counting the dedicated "square range" bays that we would use for CCW training, I was thinking the following: four 35 x 35 yard bays, two 85 x by 35 yard bays, one 100 by 35 yard bay and hopefully one 300 by 50 yard bay. I figure that should allow us to run everything, including a decent 3-gun match.

I can picture depth, or bay length, but I'm having a hard time coming up with good bay width measurements. How wide do you think the average bay is that we normally set up a stage in--say a good field course? How wide do you think thay should be?

Again, the engineer is going to come up with the actual construction and placement of the bays, but I have been tasked with telling him what we think we need (or want), so I'm open to suggestions. If you were going to design a new range for your local club, how many bays would you want, and how big would they be?

[JFlowers]

First I would hire a lawyer. There are a huge number of laws, often contradictory to wade thru. Laws on land size, range protection, liability, noise abatement, etc and so forth. Since the engineering firm is already familiar with range construction, that might not be as much of an issue.

[RAZZ]

Yep, got the lawyers and engineers talking to each other already.

[ChuckS]

Rio Salado is a pretty successful range. Fire up Google Earth and fly over to 33°29'22.19"N 111°37'26.07"W and use the ruler to measure the bays. I can make a descriptive graphic if you would like.

DO NOT FORGET DRAINAGE! Gravel, drain tile and such. Remember the Tulsa nationals.

PM me is you want some details on the Rio setup.

Later,

Chuck

Edited December 20, 2011 by ChuckS

[joseywales]

If you were going to design a new range for your local club, how many bays would you want, and how big would they be?

8 bays sounds great for club-level - 50y depth x 40y width - 4 bays on one side, 4 bays on opposing side, road & covered awnings between the two.

From one stage designer's perspective:

Measure bay width from base of side berm to base of opposite side berm (your usable area for stage setup).

Measure bay depth from base of rear berm to about 5 yards inside the crest of the side berms (again, your usable area for stage setup).

Make the width of the bay such that you have sufficient distance to engage steel targets on both sides of the bay from the dead-center of the bay.

Make them 5 yards wider and 5 yards deeper than the maximum distance you think you'll use - stretching a berm later is usually not an option.

[Schutzenmeister]

Try a little industrial espionage ... Go to Frostproof and see what Frank is doing! (I think he has a clue ...)

[MarkCO]

For club level only and training, I would go with a horseshoe layout. 4 bays on one side, 3 on the other side and 2 in the middle. That gives you 9 bays allowing one open bay if you set up all 8 stages of steel challenge. The berms in between are going to consume about 10 yards. I would like 4 25W x 50L yard berms, 3 40W x 50L berms and the 2 back berms 300 yards long and 60 yards wide. The aisle in between the 4 and 3 would be 50 yards wide and have a pole barn (open sides) in the aisle at the open end of the horseshoe that was 75' by 150'. I'd place 2 Conex boxes next to the first two berms at the open end of the horseshoe. At the top of one of the 300 yard berms, I would want a 2 story structure with the downrange sides mostly open that incorporated a "porch", "roof" and "loopholes" that could be shot from. That would require higher and wider berms in the close proximity pistol berm behind it. The 3 wider berms on the one side should have at least 250 yards from the back of the berm to the property line (for birdshot fallout). This would require a 500 yard square piece of land. The 250 yard wide and 500 yard long birdshot fall-out area outside the horseshoe could also be a 500 yard precision rifle berm. This area could be used for storage and such, but roped off when shotgun is in play on those berms. My home club is getting funds from the Fed for turning the fallout areas at our club into CRP, so you should check into that too.

[remoandiris]

Is the engineer your company is using a civil engineer? CE know dirt movement, erosion control, drainage, etc. Those are things other types of engineers probably have little experience with.

Keep in mind the base of the berms will likely be as wide as the berm is tall.

[Chuck Anderson]

Another thing to keep in mind with the bays. The further back from the berm you are the higher it needs to be to contain rounds fired at the same angle. For example, an 8 foot berm may be fine if your only 10 yards out. But if you're 50 yards back it's gonna look like a molehill. If you're including 300 yard bays in the range plan, that's likely not going to be usable for much in the way of pistol.

Oh, and as far as Rio. Avoid that range plan like the plague. Great people there, awesome turnout, wierdest layout I've ever seen. They only have 4 pistol bays for crying out loud.

[Aglifter]

That, and storage for the various clubs to be able to lock up their props, etc on your facility w.o. having to remove them entirely.

That, and TALL berms - far too many places have berms that aren't even 6 feet tall. Compared to the liability of an injury/having to come back and enlarge them, the expense of building them to the proper height in the first place - and the comfort shooters will feel by not being able to look over at the stage being shot next to them - will come back to you.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Aglifter

[Intel6]

I always liked how they do it at the Double Tap. Lots of bays on a small footprint.

Neal in AZ

[Jim Norman]

I would have an isle with 5-6 bays on each side. put a long shed or rather a series of sheds down the isle for shelter. Put 4 CONEX, 2 at each end, one on each side for prop storage.

Pistol bays for the most part 20-25y wide x 35-40y deep is more than adequate. You can put the rifle range behind and alongside the backs of the pistol bays.

[MarkCO]

I would have an isle with 5-6 bays on each side. put a long shed or rather a series of sheds down the isle for shelter. Put 4 CONEX, 2 at each end, one on each side for prop storage.

Pistol bays for the most part 20-25y wide x 35-40y deep is more than adequate. You can put the rifle range behind and alongside the backs of the pistol bays.

Jim, he said "3 gun" too, so you want 50 yard berms and can't put berms behind berms with shotgun.

[markcic]

I always liked how they do it at the Double Tap. Lots of bays on a small footprint.

Neal in AZ

Here is the satellite view of Double Tap

[Avezorak]

Ill agree that the way Porter has DTR laid out is really great, both for shooters and for match staff. Everything is close together and easy to get to . Parking on both ends makes it nice, that way everyone doesnt have to park miles away. I would put the clubhouse in the middle instead of on an end, but thats just me. Having pistol bays branching out from one end and rifle bays going out the other would allow multiple matches to be run simultaneously. God the fun I could have plotting this place out. lol

[Flexmoney]

I always liked how they do it at the Double Tap. Lots of bays on a small footprint.

Neal in AZ

Here is the satellite view of Double Tap

That is a good option.

Here is a similar, but different plan in Atlanta, IN. They run state/section level matches there. Works well.

If you are doing 8 bays...go ahead and do 10 or 12 (at least plan them). Having 8 bays makes it kinda tight if you do want to run a bigger match.

You might want to plan this in 2 or more phases. Moving dirt can get expensive (fuel). 5 bays will get you a decent local match.

And, here is what we work with at Circleville, OH. There are 5 pistol type bays (that we usually use for the local matches), and to the right and up the hill are 100y rifle (far right) and silhouette (just to the left of the rifle bay) ranges.

I can tell you roughly the size of those bays (Bay 1 being the left most of the 5 pistol bays):

Bay 1 - It is deep enough that we run plates racks there at 25y with good room to spare. It is a touch on the skinny side. Probably ~20y+. Here, we have to watch where we put steel vs. the shooting area at USPSA matches. (I like putting most of the steel on one side, then favoring the shooting area off to the other side a bit.)

Bay 2 - We run the Bianchi Barricades here, which go 35y deep...keeping them just in front of the shelter on that bay. It is a little wider, probably 25y.

Bay 3 - Here we lose some depth, as there are 2 back berms...due to how the Bianchi mover is setup. We still get 25y of depth. This bay is wider. Probably 30y.

Bay 4 goes 50y deep.

Bay 5 gets 40y deep.

On top of the back berms, we have a bit of a hill. If you have any hills on your property...that would be a strong thing to look at for a back berm. That allows us to go as deep as we do on some bays and still feel safe.

Side berms...I think they ought to be twice as wide as they are tall (2:1 ratio sounds like what I've heard?). They will settle, and need redone from time to time. Build them high and wide to start with and they can make it longer between upkeep.

Drainage is huge. I think it is key to a good range.

I like a slight variety of bay sizes. It makes you learn to approach things in different ways.

[JKSNIPER]

Just an idea but you may want to consider having a professional company like action target come and give your land a look see and tell you what they can do.

Lots of Police Departments that have their own ranges are going with companies like them because there's little to zero chance of an injury to a user from frag/splashback/ricochet and they make money when they recover the lead using their target system.

Unk how that would be compatible with USPSA type COF but I'm sure if you told them what you're looking to do they could give you an idea if they could do it or not.

They also might be able to help out with other considerations like drainage, sound barriers, etc...

Just an idea.

JK

[Ray_Z]

The NRA has a pretty good sized book on range planning and design. It also had many designs for range props. It was well worth the money I had to pay to get it.

[GuyC]

That's what I like to hear Razz. We could use a better place for our monthly matches.

[JohnRodriguez]

first thing for you range. It needs to face north, so you don't get a face full of sun while your shooting. The surface needs to be a sandy material that packs well, drains well and doesn't get muddy. The US shooing acadamy in Tulsa has a real nice bay size, horrible drainage and the grass needs to go. The Hogue range in Morro bay CA is also has nicely sized bays, but the gravel is a little to big, you get a little worn out being on it all day. Rio Salado's bays 1-3 are real deep and kind of set up for bianchi, which is great, but if your starting on a clean sheet of paper, then set up some deep ranges separate from the main range. Don't let any high power shooters on the range, bunch of whinny cry baby's, that's why bay 4 setup at rio has to be angled to the west.. it's funny because you don't see any recocheing at area2, WSSC or MM3gun.

[RAZZ]

Thank you all very much for all the suggestions! Some of them are not feasible, based on the lay of the land, but I (we) are taking them all to heart. Now this is still just a 'paper range,' meaning it's just a sketch on a satellite picture, as we still don't know if the land deal is going to work, but we are being optimistic. I'll keep you all updated on the progress.

[Chills1994]

like somebody else said already, make the berms face north, so nobody is shooting into a rising or setting sun.

If you have a horseshoe type set up and have a major match, afterwards somebody is always going to be griping about their match conditions weren't the same, "I was on bay 5 right when the sun was coming up over the berm. I couldn't see $%^& !"

Running water!

Running water!

And real bathrooms!

Women absolutely hate port-a-johns. Having real working bathrooms there will entice the women/girlfriends/wives folk out to the range and then it becomes a family outing. getting the kids started early is key.

I might have mentioned that already in the PM I sent you.

[remoandiris]

make the berms face north, so nobody is shooting into a rising or setting sun.

As long as there aren't existing houses within a mile to the north. If there are, point the berms another direction...unless you're going to baffle the entire bay.

[Chills1994]

well, it sounds like they haven't even bought the land yet. maybe they can avoid houses within a mile??

[remoandiris]

well, it sounds like they haven't even bought the land yet. maybe they can avoid houses within a mile??

Hopefully. Then they'll only need contingency plans to deal with encroachment if it happens.