Production 15?

[Skydiver]

[breaking off from the division modification thread.]

Fill the survey how you would like USPSA Production to change it's round count limit. Discuss below the pros and cons of your choice.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Skydiver

[Maksim]

Voted. Thanks for putting this up.

[j0n]

Voted.

[sperman]

Hasn't this already been beat to death in a couple of threads?

[Wideload]

It keeps coming back to life... despite being shot numerous times with 10+1 rounds of minor PF loads.

Keep it as is. Production as a Division is a limited capacity game that emphasizes getting good hits. Logistics on mags with different capacity for shooters and matches in restricted vs unrestricted states is one more headache.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Wideload

[remoandiris]

Hasn't this already been beat to death in a couple of threads?

Yes, but we keep falling for it.

[PistoleroJesse]

I was originally all for 15 rounds, but now that I look back on it through the window of the 8 rounds per position rule it's not such a big deal to me.

[centermass]

If "most" feel Production is a "beginners" division, then it should be required to use factory ammunition only, as nearly all beginners do not reload. This removes the tuned loads for minor power factor. I can see loading to capacity if this is the case, and then scoring major since the PF will not (in theory) be close to the minor floor. Keep the "stock" rules the same, DAO only, gun/pouch/holster placement, etc. Remember tho that 15 is arbitrary... there are many Production legal guns that can hold 17, so "load to capacity" needs to be just that with no limitation other than OE-capacity mags are required.

[twodownzero]

If "most" feel Production is a "beginners" division, then it should be required to use factory ammunition only, as nearly all beginners do not reload. This removes the tuned loads for minor power factor. I can see loading to capacity if this is the case, and then scoring major since the PF will not (in theory) be close to the minor floor. Keep the "stock" rules the same, DAO only, gun/pouch/holster placement, etc. Remember tho that 15 is arbitrary... there are many Production legal guns that can hold 17, so "load to capacity" needs to be just that with no limitation other than OE-capacity mags are required.

Production is not a "beginner[']s division." There are many very good shooters shooting in production (I'm not among them).

Tuned loads? A lot of factory ammo won't make minor out of some perfectly legitimate production guns. That would be a huge problem if we didn't allow people to handload (and unenforceable).

There is no requirement that production guns have to be DAO.

After more thought, I'm opposed to changing the ten round capacity. We already have an iron sight/hi cap division--limited. No reason to change from the 10 rounds in production.

[Unregistered]

Want to shoot higher capacity than 10? Shoot Standard/limited.

[JorDanO]

One of the main reasons why I prefer to shoot Production is the strategy involved with being limited to 10+1. If I don't feel like reloading and just want to go fast I just shoot Limited or Open.

[hiker88]

I voted to keep it as is. I have invested in over a dozen 10rd Glock mags to compete. The 10 rd limit also lets new shooters like me (shot 5 matches so far) to work on smoothing out my reloads and planning out how to tackle a stage.

[LPatterson]

There is no requirement that production guns have to be DAO.

I am not sure why the reference to DAO? During the conception phase the requirement was for double action first shot but then the Glock was allowed because BATFE listed it that way so Police agencies could state that officers were using a double action gun like their old revolvers. The spin factor. The only thing DA about a Glock is that the striker is only partially cocked and it finishes and releases as the trigger is pulled. Hopefully people don't believe the XDm is just the enhancements for competition, it was a race to get more ammunition available than the other guy. Sex sells, speed sells, better sells, more sells. Hell the family's first TV was an 8" round black & white now they are up to 30-40-50-60" and HD 3-D.

Time to put the soap box away (does anyone else remember the old wood soap box or a real ice box or milk in a bottle delivered to your door).

[lcs]

Not voting. IMO this poll only addresses the same issue of (1) Keep Production as is (2) Change the round count to 15.

I can predict the stats on this poll easily---the results will indicate option (1). Polls are easily skewed (in the question) to a predetermined result and the responses will be limited by who participates in this forum on a routine basis. In other words-The poll would not reach all USPSA members.

No offense meant to the OP..

[Skydiver]

Not voting. IMO this poll only addresses the same issue of (1) Keep Production as is (2) Change the round count to 15.

I can predict the stats on this poll easily---the results will indicate option (1). Polls are easily skewed (in the question) to a predetermined result and the responses will be limited by who participates in this forum on a routine basis. In other words-The poll would not reach all USPSA members.

No offense meant to the OP..

No problem... There was just enough postings on the other thread along the lines of "start another thread", "do a poll", and only "a handful of people" would support it. Trying to help keep the noise level down on that thread and let it focus on adding divisions, while this thread furthers the discussion about the merits of changing the round count limits for Production.

[beltjones]

Not voting. IMO this poll only addresses the same issue of (1) Keep Production as is (2) Change the round count to 15.

I can predict the stats on this poll easily---the results will indicate option (1). Polls are easily skewed (in the question) to a predetermined result and the responses will be limited by who participates in this forum on a routine basis. In other words-The poll would not reach all USPSA members.

No offense meant to the OP..

Do you discount all statistics where the sample size is smaller than the population?

How would you have liked the original question worded? Did you notice that there were actually three possible responses instead of the two you listed?

[Unregistered]

Not voting. IMO this poll only addresses the same issue of (1) Keep Production as is (2) Change the round count to 15.

I can predict the stats on this poll easily---the results will indicate option (1). Polls are easily skewed (in the question) to a predetermined result and the responses will be limited by who participates in this forum on a routine basis. In other words-The poll would not reach all USPSA members.

No offense meant to the OP..

How often can polls or questionnaires reach a sample where n=N? This isn't a census.

I doubt even the USPSA can officially carry out a poll like this that will satisfy your requirements. There may be the odd one or two who never receive a letter that could hypothetically be sent out, and are not aware, and thus do not respond nor know of the poll.

I'm not saying this poll satisfies proper criteria for real statistical analysis or even for a fair representation of the target population.

Of course, participants of this forum as a subset differ from the N of USPSA. By being on these forums, one can hypothesize that the member is more involved than a USPSA member not involved in these forums. Or any other number of potential causes.

Unless you want to hire a statistician and a research team (I promise my fees won't be that high!) then these polls are just informal and represent nothing beyond the Benos member population that have in interest in the "USPSA/IPSC Shooting" fora (or somehow stumbled across this thread) - rather than the USPSA as your target population.

[alpha-charlie]

I've voted to keep it as is. As a die-hard Production shooter I like the challenge of 10+1 and the simplicity of how my gun is set-up. I like to focus on becoming a better all around shooter and not worry so much about my gear. I understand the argument of new shooters being forced to shoot limited their first couple matches due to not having enough mags, but I was the same way. I showed up with what I had, an XD45 with 3 mags on my belt and one in my pocket. I got a crash-course of USPSA scoring, rules, and safety procedures in about 10 minutes. I had no idea what different divisions were, or how scoring really worked, or PF, etc. And yes, I finished dead last for the first couple of matches. I wouldn't have mattered what division I was shooting in or if I had 15 rounds in the gun at the beginning. I really didn't care what place I finished or really understood what Division I was in. All that I knew is that I loved whatever it is I was doing. I joined USPSA, read through the rule book, continued to go to matches and asked alot of questions. I purchased new gear and guns down the road and haven't looked back since. I think my experience is how most new shooters start out in this game. Adding 5 more rounds to Production isn't going to change the new guy experience. IMO

[JakeMartens]

Hasn't this already been beat to death in a couple of threads?

Yes, but what the hell else are we going to beat to death, politics?

[Chuck D]

...it has absolutely nothing to do with what all can agree to be a "non-scientific" poll or the wording of the questions.

...it has EVERYTHING to do with the dislike of the answers received.

[Unregistered]

...it has absolutely nothing to do with what all can agree to be a "non-scientific" poll or the wording of the questions.

...it has EVERYTHING to do with the dislike of the answers received.

Which, if taken at face value, offers enough support for certain conclusions.

[beltjones]

I've voted to keep it as is. As a die-hard Production shooter I like the challenge of 10+1 and the simplicity of how my gun is set-up. I like to focus on becoming a better all around shooter and not worry so much about my gear. I understand the argument of new shooters being forced to shoot limited their first couple matches due to not having enough mags, but I was the same way. I showed up with what I had, an XD45 with 3 mags on my belt and one in my pocket. I got a crash-course of USPSA scoring, rules, and safety procedures in about 10 minutes. I had no idea what different divisions were, or how scoring really worked, or PF, etc. And yes, I finished dead last for the first couple of matches. I wouldn't have mattered what division I was shooting in or if I had 15 rounds in the gun at the beginning. I really didn't care what place I finished or really understood what Division I was in. All that I knew is that I loved whatever it is I was doing. I joined USPSA, read through the rule book, continued to go to matches and asked alot of questions. I purchased new gear and guns down the road and haven't looked back since. I think my experience is how most new shooters start out in this game. Adding 5 more rounds to Production isn't going to change the new guy experience. IMO

This same experience is repeated with virtually everyone but Ben Stoeger who was somehow born with GM skills. Pretty much everyone starts out not caring what division he/she happens to be put in, nor do they even know the vagaries of the different divisions. For the select few who come out of the womb with GM skills and expect to place well their first few matches, I don't think it's too much to expect them to also come with the right gear.

Production is a great way to enter the sport, but that doesn't make it a beginner division, nor does that mean that new shooters must shoot their first few matches in it. Nor, at this point, is it a given that everyone will eventually transition out of Production. It's viable, it's successful, and it has some of the toughest competition in the sport - all with 10 round magazines. I don't see what going to 15 rounds will do, other than make Production more similar to other existing divisions.

[Skydiver]

I got an idea. Let's get rid of the maximum ammunition capacity division requirement. Shooters can load as many bullets as they can or want to into their gun, but they need to reload after 10 shots.

[Unregistered]

I got an idea. Let's get rid of the maximum ammunition capacity division requirement. Shooters can load as many bullets as they can or want to into their gun, but they need to reload after 10 shots.

I like it

[GrumpyOne]

Or let's just start a division for Thompson Contenders in Pistol caliber....

Production is working good the way it is....Leave it alone.

As for a "beginners", There may be more people in Production right now than most of the other divisions, and alot of them will be new, but I'll bet there are just as many GM's in Production as any other division....And they made GM with 10 round mags....Changing the mag limit to 15 is stepping on their accomplishment. It's about being equal, not about what can be done.