sirveyr Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 No, Steve. Dead. In IDPA we play for keeps and we like our cardboard dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 No, Steve. Dead. In IDPA we play for keeps and we like our cardboard dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) Yeah or add in additional rules at will... I hate when the course of fire takes all of the creativity out of it... "2 shots to each body and THEN 1 shot to each head" so if you shoot T-1: 2 body and 1 head and the shoot T-2: 1 head and 2 body you get a Pe... The COF designer IS free to specify the engagement order if he likes. This is entirely permitted by the rule book. It's not a rule, it's a COF requirement. Mozambique means mozambique to most of us. If the COF designer tells you to shoot it that way, you'd better do it. Perfectly legal. Edited December 10, 2011 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) Is this the typical course of fire in an IDPA match. I have not been to an official match, I have always been and USPSA guy and took a 3 year hiatus, I have just gotten back into shooting and since my weekends are still tied up I have been going to a local shooting range match that is not an official IDPA match but loosely based on those rules and for the best of my ability it is killing me, with the 2 to the body, 1 to the head, restricted not restricted, reloading behind cover, not dropping a mag with live rounds. I am not complaining, just trying to get some clarification on a true IDPA match. The game is the game just need to know what I need to work on as looks as though IDPA is what I am going to be able to work into my schedule. All input would be great. Does anyone else struggle with this? I think the vets on the forum are sick of these kinds of questions as they have been beat to death. Being new to action shooting and the forum I'll try and take a stab at it. I'm in no way saying your questions are not valid. Just that they are common. #1 Never NEVER admit you're playing a game that is losely based on this game or that. Drives guys on here nuts. They lose sight of your actual question and just wanna rail you for not playing the official game. Then the arguments start on interpretation of this rule or the validity of that rule. As you have probably seen. #2 As you know USPSA is a game of problem solving (gaming if you will) and marksmanship. You are presented with a puzzle and asked to solve it. Sometimes you can come up with a solution even the designer didn't consider. I LOVE that about USPSA. IDPA on the other hand is a game of spirit. It is based on defensive pistol not practical. You are given a SCENARIO (important word) and the rule book and COF description will tell you how you are expected to shoot the course. Best way I can think to describe it is it's a memory game with marksmanship thrown in. I LOVE that about IDPA. Now to answer your questions. Mozambique or two to the body one to the head. This is supposed to simulate a failure drill. Where the bad guy is wearing body armor or is hopped up on meth or something and the body shots won't take him down. Remember, the game is BASED on defensive pistol. In a game you would automaticaly blast the target in the face if the COF required three shots on target one being in the head's -0 in order to avoid the transition. In THIS game it is expected that like a defensive scenario you'd attempt two to the torso as it is a higher percentage shot and finish with the head shot if the first two failed to neutralize the threat. It is a totally legal COF even if the rule book allows some wiggle room for the guy trying to shave a half second off his time to try and finally beat Bob for a change. All that being said, the biggest reason it's done IMO is to slow the hosers down and force them to make a small transition. I'm not sure about the "restricted not restricted" comment so I'll just reiterate what I said before about this being a game BASED on defensive pistol. The founders felt defensive scenarios should be handled in a certain way and based the rules on their belief. I'm not saying their beliefs are right or wrong just saying that's the way it is and that's why they wrote the rules the way they did. Reloading behind cover. It's a black or white rule. Back to being a game based on defensive blah blah blah. It's probably a good idea to reload when you know you're in the clear. I know if the SHTF I'd reload before making that 50 yard dash to the next available cover just in case another body armor wearing cardboard crack head comes around the corner to steal my wallet before my fat butt can make it there. In USPSA I'm loading while I'm moving because I know that cardboard crack head ain't shooting back. IDPA is a dangerous sport. IDPA = Defensive USPSA = Offensive. Not dropping a mag with ammo in it. Defensive game. How many times have you yelled at the action hero for not upgrading his weapon after shooting the terrorist in the airport or at the guy who didn't pick up the gun after bashing a dude with a bat? Ammo is GOOD. More ammo is better. Unfortunatley an empty mag and one in the pipe makes for wiggle room for the guy trying to beat Bob. He can say he thought the mag was empty with one in the pipe when the mag actually had just one wittle bitty round left in it. They had to make a call so if the gun was hot you have to store the mag. Sorry, it's the way it is. You and I both know the COF is only going to require 14 rounds and you probably won't have to even use your 3rd mag MUCH LESS the one you stored on your RLWR earlier... but what if you didn't store your mag and the next stage is a continuation of the last one? Those 4 extra rounds might come in handy huh? I just gave myself an evil idea. MWAHAHAHAHA! What should you work on? RTFM (read the #*@&ing manual). IDPA is not hard if you are up to date on the rules. Know how to shoot the course before your SO even opens his mouth by looking at the stage. The rule book is only 82 pages. A third of it revolves around running a match. Really light reading. If you're posting here I know you're not adverse to reading. Slice the pie Engage targets from the outside in. Tactical priority Engage targets from near to far. Closer targets are more threatening so should be neutralized first. Tactical sequence If all targets are the same distance from you they are all of equal threat so should all be engaged with one round before they are engaged again. For example, if you are in an el presidente situation with 3 targets equal distance from you and no cover it should go something like this.... T1,T2,T3,T3,T2,T1 Everyone drinks before anyone drinks again. If you miss T2 the first time go on to T3 and come back to T2 with 2. As long as you took a shot at him you're fine is the way it's been explained to me. (oh lord here it comes) Learn your different reloads. There are 3. Tactical, emergency and with retention. Tactical is probably the one I see screwed up the most. Don't be the guy who doesn't get it. Learn what it is to properly slice the pie and how to do it. You don't need 5 fault lines to keep you in check. While I enjoy using a leg as balast to lean out and shoot some targets over a fault line, it doesn't work in this game. Mozambique is always 2 to the torso and 1 to the head. Don't be the guy that argues that the head is part of the body. The stage designer wanted you to put 2 rounds in the torso and one in the head to make it more fun. Just flow with it. Bottom line is know the game you're playing and appreciate it. They both have their merits and drawbacks. I see arguments that IDPA is too restrictive and has too many rules but then I see all the arguments over the interpretation over vague USPSA rules. "Does the wall REALLY go all the way to the ground if it doesn't?" Just go out there and have fun. Don't expect to go play football with rugby rules. Hell, there's a guy on the forum that has a weekley "my buddies and I got together to try and figure out how to game this obviously black and white rule" thread. Now for the LOSELY BASED stuff! Get INVOLVED! If they are doing it wrong then offer to help. Don't tell them they are doing it wrong. Offer to design a course or two every week. Design it and explain it properly and teach them HOW to do it right. They'll eventually get it and follow suit. Sorry for the wall of text. Edited December 10, 2011 by Don Springer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Wow... it took just that one post without even a chance of reply to make me cynical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Good job Don..almost... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Psst, Don, "Slicing the pie" is the other form of Tactical Priority. The term covers both shooting from cover and shooting at varying ranges. I think members should have to pass a vocabulary test. The Other Game has no problem with Comstock and Virginia Counts, why should IDPA struggle with Vickers Count and Limited Vickers Count? The usual announcement is "not limited," seems nobody remembers Mr Vickers' contribution. And likewise Tactical Priority and Tactical Sequence ought to be understood when given in a CoF. Your last recommendation is the best. Don't tell me I am wrong or that my CoFs are boring. Don't even tell me you will "help" or that you "have an idea." I can do it myself about as easily as I can supervise you or debug your bright idea. Get in all the way. Design, set up, and run a stage. Or a bay, or a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpage Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Ok well then, Again not arguing rules and the validity of them just wanted to get a better idea of IDPA. To be honest I have always been told to watch out for "the vets" Not trying to say that the match I have been participating in is doing anything wrong as there rules are IDPA they just are a little more lenient on equipment to allow more shooters to try it out. Sorry if my question offended the Vets, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) If the COF calls for 2 torso and 1 head, and you shoot... A ) a miss torso, a miss torso, and a -0 head: Down 10 B ) a -3 torso, a -3 torso, and a missed head: Down 11 FTN C ) a -3 torso, a -3 torso, a -3 torso: Down 11 FTN D ) a -0 torso, a -0 torso, and a missed head: Down 5 Yep, that's the way I'd see it as well. When we do Mozambique engagements we put a strip of black tape at the neck perf and score it as two targets. A) Down 10, FTN bee) Down 11, two FTN C) Down 11, two FTN D) Down 5, FTN It allows us to specify the number of rounds on each target, without any "head is part of the body" nonsense, and since the whole point of the Mozambique drill is as a simulation of two body shots not neutralizing the threat, applying a FTN for missing the head, regardless of the body hits, is appropriate and "realistic". Edited December 10, 2011 by RickB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Yeah or add in additional rules at will... I hate when the course of fire takes all of the creativity out of it... "2 shots to each body and THEN 1 shot to each head" so if you shoot T-1: 2 body and 1 head and the shoot T-2: 1 head and 2 body you get a Pe... The COF designer IS free to specify the engagement order if he likes. This is entirely permitted by the rule book. It's not a rule, it's a COF requirement. Mozambique means mozambique to most of us. If the COF designer tells you to shoot it that way, you'd better do it. Perfectly legal. I once had a stage that called for 2 targets moz'ed while retreating. The stage readout didnt specify and the RO worded it "while retreating,youll engauge these targets so as when you round the corner hallway,they'll have 1 round in the heads and 2 on the 8 inch circle". I took advantage and went for the heads first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 When we do Mozambique engagements we put a strip of black tape at the neck perf and score it as two targets. It is still just one target. Clever taping can't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 When we do Mozambique engagements we put a strip of black tape at the neck perf and score it as two targets. It is still just one target. Clever taping can't change that. I'd actually be ok with that. USPSA does it to "simulate" mozambiques. If you didn't use tape you could use a target without a head in front of a target with just the head- no shoot thrus and not the same target. May be goofy but I can't see anything wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I think members should have to pass a vocabulary test. The Other Game has no problem with Comstock and Virginia Counts, why should IDPA struggle with Vickers Count and Limited Vickers Count? The usual announcement is "not limited," seems nobody remembers Mr Vickers' contribution. And likewise Tactical Priority and Tactical Sequence ought to be understood when given in a CoF. That's the point I was trying to make with my comment about knowing how to shoot the COF by looking at it. IDPA is a simple game if you just know the rules of engagment. the pie will never change, priority never changes and sequence never changes. Know and embrace the rules for what they are and the rest is just marksmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Ok well then, Again not arguing rules and the validity of them just wanted to get a better idea of IDPA. To be honest I have always been told to watch out for "the vets" Not trying to say that the match I have been participating in is doing anything wrong as there rules are IDPA they just are a little more lenient on equipment to allow more shooters to try it out. Sorry if my question offended the Vets, Again, I wasn't dogging on you for your questions. My comment about the vets was more of a finger wag at the vets for not really answering your question. I feel a lot of 'em are cynical and if they're not engaged enough in the sport to help someone with a question without being snide then they should probably start following moms advice about not saying anything if they have nothing nice to say. As long as you are serious about learning the sport I'd be willing to answer any question you have. If you're trying to find yet another way of comparing IDPA to USPSA in an attempt to sneakily (is that even a word?) compare the two and prove USPSAs supperiority then you will be found out and dealt with in short order. Yes there is an IDPA police and they WILL come for you. I don't have all the answers but I'm happy to try and help. If I don't have the answer then it's probbly a unique enough question to warrant the vets attention and they'll grace you with the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpage Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 As long as you are serious about learning the sport I'd be willing to answer any question you have. If you're trying to find yet another way of comparing IDPA to USPSA in an attempt to sneakily (is that even a word?) compare the two and prove USPSAs supperiority then you will be found out and dealt with in short order. Yes there is an IDPA police and they WILL come for you. No way trying to prove one over the other. Like I said in my op it appears I will only be able to make IDPA matches, so I am serious. It is just a time thing, getting to know the rules and skills. I will not deny that my first love is USPSA, but with the time constraints I will have to learn to love a new mistress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yeah or add in additional rules at will... I hate when the course of fire takes all of the creativity out of it... "2 shots to each body and THEN 1 shot to each head" so if you shoot T-1: 2 body and 1 head and the shoot T-2: 1 head and 2 body you get a Pe... The COF designer IS free to specify the engagement order if he likes. This is entirely permitted by the rule book. It's not a rule, it's a COF requirement. Mozambique means mozambique to most of us. If the COF designer tells you to shoot it that way, you'd better do it. Perfectly legal. I meant this as 2 seperate statements. The MD that made up the crazy rules added them in at will. Then I was just throwing in that I hate the COF being so restrictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 After shooting a USPSA match a couple years ago, I got all excited about using black tape to "create two targets out of one target" for IDPA matches. But it really fouls up the FTN scoring, and it becomes a massive re-education process for every shooter? WTF is this? How do I score it? After thinking about it for a couple months, I dumped the idea. It is a cool & creative technique, but I don't think it's well suited to transfer into IDPA. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Gerg, You gonna use black tape target splits at the 2012 CO match? Inquiring minds want to know. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 It'll be pointed out in the COF..[iF] it's in a COF next year,and as of now the COF's i sent in for 2012,none will be used,other then standard missed steel rule in effect,but you never know..Plan on taking a DNF on the stage???..I've never seen the use of tape when in fact it was pointed out in the COF,which i think whoever came up with this rule[idea] did a good thing to enforce the "impact" of a possible FTN being applied to the score and working something that happened in $%^& life[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill ]into a COF..Most @#$%$#^&'s will have you practice this with 2 shots,COM or whatever the target flavor is,then a pause then 1 to the head..The way it's played back East is,go ahead and shoot as fast as you like,but miss the [required]scored[ Separately ] head shot and you'll pay a little more..Honestly i like the way it's scored as a FTN,and have used it in 6 of the [8]State matches i've put on with no ill effect from any shooter ...Does that make it right?? I don't know,because i can't find it spelled out in my MD application book on how to run a match...On the other hand,2.5 seconds[-5] i might be able to make it up somewhere,but add the other 5 seconds...well i'd think real hard on making that shot.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Gerg, You are a clear thinking and clear speaking man. I've met you. So why does your writing require a rosetta stone to decipher? Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 First of all, the drive by media, if they get wind of the way you are making reference in the stage description will have a field day. Those are the upper and lower scoring zones. When I do a Mozambique stage I do use 3/4" black tape but just so only the perf is covered in the B zone. That way all the upper zone is available. I usually make the COF comstock. That way if the bullet doesn't clear either the upper or lower zone it's their fault if they don't put another round in the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Not in IDPA. The rule book makes all kinds of references to head shots. If the media wants to criticize IDPA, it's right in the book: http://idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss1622 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Match directors and course designers often try to make a stage more challenging by adding uncommon actions like requiring follow-up head shots or strong hand weak hand transitions. This is sometime frustrating but it is part of the game. Remember the #1 rule of IDPA, shoot the stage the way they tell you… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 First of all, the drive by media, if they get wind of the way you are making reference in the stage description will have a field day. Those are the upper and lower scoring zones. When I do a Mozambique stage I do use 3/4" black tape but just so only the perf is covered in the B zone. That way all the upper zone is available. I usually make the COF comstock. That way if the bullet doesn't clear either the upper or lower zone it's their fault if they don't put another round in the target. You are talking about Comstock so I assume you are referring to USPSA now....the above target layout is not legal in USPSA. 4.1.5 Declaring a single, intact target to represent two or more targets by useof tape, paint or any other means is prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now