Pinkerton Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Hi, I'm building a limited AR I was going to go with flat top with a scout rail. A Wilson heavy barrel 16" 1/8 with a pinned JP cooly break. Now I'm not sure I think maybe a 18" would be better and I keep going back and forth on 1/8 and 1/9. HELP!! 300 yards is about the max around here. Thanks, Pinkerton OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 I have 16", 18", and 20" AR's. I like the way the .750 18" gun "feels" best. Running out to 200, I don't see much difference. The 18" gun is fine out to 300, but the velocity loss of the 2" from a 20" tube is noticable at 500 yards. Since I shoot at 500 yards a few times a year (and can dial more up at that distance anyway), I really don't care I just cut my 24" AR10(T) barrel back to 18"...same reason. These opinions are mine and mine alone, actual milage may vary, not for the other use, keep out of children. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 18" or 20". you are looking for sight radius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Hi,I'm building a limited AR I was going to go with flat top with a scout rail. A Wilson heavy barrel 16" 1/8 with a pinned JP cooly break. Now I'm not sure I think maybe a 18" would be better and I keep going back and forth on 1/8 and 1/9. HELP!! 300 yards is about the max around here. Thanks, Pinkerton OUT! If you're going to build a new one, stick with the 20". A "Limited" class rifle means iron sights to me, so more sight radius would be better. However, the confusing part about your post - the scout rail, which led me to believe you're going for a dot or scope as the sighting system rather than iron sights, and would effectively put this rifle out of the "Limited" class . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkerton Posted June 3, 2004 Author Share Posted June 3, 2004 It is my understanding that in limited three gun you can use one optic on one gun. I was going to use a 1x4 on the scout rail. One more question is going with a heavier barrel going .970 to help or just be more cumbersome. My experience is with a 20" pencil barrel for duty use and a M-16 with a 7.5" for fun. This is my first "accurate" Ar15. I first thought the 16" because of manurverability and weight. Then I got worried about range. Thanks, Pinkerton OUT! PS It seems the more I learn the less I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Pinkerton, you are refering to what is usually called "Tactical" class. USPSA Limited is iron sights only. As for the twist, if you plan on shooting 75 Hornadys or 77 Sierra, I would get a 1 in 8 or even a 1 in 7. If you are planning on shooting 55s-69s, I would get a 1 in 9. Let your bullet choice dictate what barrel you are going to use. Either will most likely be fine. As for the weight that is a personal preference issue. There is no dominant weight that wins matches. I prefer a bit of a heavier rifle and feel that weight has little bearing on manuverability. Other people like lighter guns. As for length, GET THE 18 OR 20! Velocity is not the main issue here, it is smoothness of function. The full length gas sytem rifles are less violent. The shorter guns are most violent and buck around more. Sure for clearing the streets of Baghdad, a 16 or 14.5 inch barrel may be better as they're shorter but full sized guns are definitely the ticket for 3 gun. You can certainly be competitive with a 16 in (witness Guy Hawkins smacking me around in the New Mex match) but few are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 If you do get a 16 inch barrel, you want the gun as heavy as is practical and you want the best compensator you can afford. I have a Bushmaster superlight carbine with no comp and while it's great for potential defensive use and for carrying with you, it moves too much for fast second and third shots, regardless of how good your technique is (I add the latter because some tactibillies have told me I just don't know how to shoot properly if I think I need a comp on an AR). A 16 inch HBAR with a decent comp is completely different animal. I can only assume that an 18-20 inch barrel with the longer gas system, more weight on the end, and the same comp would be even better in terms of having minimal muzzle flip to disturb the sight picture. The reason why I have shorter barrels on my rifles (14.5 and 16 inches) is because they are intended for other purposes first and foremost, and I am willing to accept the additional challenges posed by using them in competitions. If I ever build an AR specifically for 3-Gun match use, it will definitely be 18-20 inches and either 1in7 or 1in8 inch twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 This is my first "accurate" Ar15. I first thought the 16" because of manurverability and weight. Then I got worried about range. You won't give up any maneuvering ability with the 20". This topic had been discussed quite a bit here, but the 20" is being used by most shooters. I had personally used a 16" heavy barrel mid-length upper, but didn't find it to have any more advantage in tight areas, so went back to the 20" for other reasons that have been posted here. With the 1-4x scope, this new upper/rifle will definitely put you into the Tac Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 I used to run a 20" w/ 1:9 barrel, heavy barrel, fluted, etc. with the JP tank brake. I built a new upper, specifically for 3-gun and after some long debate, and discussion with folks like Jake Kempton and Mike Voigt, went with a 18" in 1:8. I love it! Tac driver and still nice for close in stuff (my proof of the latter was the damn dark house at SMM3G...I loved that match!!!!). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Sorry Rhino has inspired a Thread Drift which really should be in the Hate section. If there is one thing I cannot stand, it's Tactibilly commentary on rifle comps. Few things are funnier than having a overweight wannabe Navy SEAL-Special Forces Supertrooper operator (who is actually an accountant, lawyer, businessman during the day and who would puke if he shot a deer much less a muslim extremist) wearing a Royal Robbins Tactical vest tell me about how I must be a puss because I have a comped AR. "If you can't stand the MASSIVE recoil of .223 poodle shooter, you would not make it in the real world." blah, blah, blah. Along the same lines are some (note I said some, certainly not all) police officers that I have dealt with. I am aware of an large metro agency whose SWAT instructors absolutely hated rifle comps. Too gamey. Too sissy. The rationale for their distain: comps increase muzzle flash and blast which increases your target signature and ruins night vision. (True enough) BUT THE SAME AGENCY THEN ISSUES 16 IN ARs WITHOUT ANY FLASH HIDER OR COMP AT ALL. Talk about muzzle flash and blast. It looks like a bomb went off when those things are fired at night. But at least they are not gamey. Do those guys realize that comps primarily reduce muzzle flip and do not really effect recoil all that much (which in an AR is primarily the action of the bolt carrier.) or do they even know the difference between the two? If I were to venture into the real world where these heroes inhabit I would have a flash hider on my rifle and not a comp. But my rifles see the Rio Salado range much more than Fallujah. Finally, whenever I watch any of these guys shoot, I can appreciate why a comp would not make a difference anyway - their technique is far too advanced. One point of this rant (other than making me feel better) is that one can certainly compete with his Dawn of the Dead rifle in 3 gun and even win - especially if you're Guy Hawkins. But if you want to build a rifle for 3 gun, let go of tactical notions and build one for the match. From what I've seen, Bennie Cooley, Steve Horseman and KyleL don't shoot their duty rifles in competition. They all shoot full sized ARs, with a comp. Why? Because they kick less and are easier to control and get higher velocity. Sermon hath ended....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Geez Kelly...I didn't know you could give a sermon , and it was a good one indeed! BTW, I've had guys shooting in high power competitions make fun of my AR with a Smith compensator a few years ago, only if they can see what my rifles are sporting now - bigger, better, and much much louder comps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Great sermon Pastor Kelly! I had a guy (attempt to) rip on a couple us (IPSC Shooters) for having Aimpoints (and other red dots) on our AR's. Something to the effect that it wasn't "tactically correct" and that in a 'real world' setup, they'd only have irons or other non-battery operated system. Thankfully there was a copy of the local paper nearby with 6 line infantry (non-SF) soldiers aggressing a house on the front page. You guessed right. 3 Aimpoints, 2 ACOG's and an Elcan (on the SAW). I know...don't get me started on EOTech's. Yes...I asked him, if Fallujah was REAL WORLD enough for him. The kicker to the whole thing was: A - he was shooting two M1A's that were "custom built" and he was bragging over a 1.5" group....at 25 yards; and B - Shooting his bolt (I'm sorry, sniper) rifle with about 25 pounds of sandbags at a 100 and bragging over a 0.25" group. Further stating that our AR's, after shooting a 0.5" group, wasn't an accurate rifle. My buddy remarked on the latter by saying, well now that you've got your rifle under all that sand, let's move 10 feet and shoot. He remarked that it would take him a little bit and asked how long it would take us. We said about 5 minutes as we were shooting off our bi-pods. Of course, this too is the same dork at our range that sports a boonie hat and his Tech Seargent pin(s) at the range. What he won't tell you is that he spent most of his career in the Air Force checking ID's at the gate (family friend was his commander). Oh well. The personalities are half of the entertainment. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Back to the Original tread......... You will find an 18-20 inch rifle with a full length gas system and a Cooley or Benny Hill comp works great, and is softer-faster to shoot than a lighter carbine with its more agressive gas stroke. Plus the added sight radius is a plus in limited configuration The JP aluminum carrier is the shit for "competition" as it reduces the recoil impulse when paired with a JP Coolie comp to just about nothing and allows much faster accurate shooting. The optic will put you in tactical class, but that is now the largest and fastest growing class at my local club anyway as its pulling in Tac-3-gun and IDPA guys. With a flattop and a rail gas block you can switch classes at your leasure. By the way you CAN build a postban rifle with a "removable brake" using nonstandard I/E no flashhider will fit thread profiles. Tactical is whatever kills the badguys the fastest, I/E Tactical nukes??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 A - he was shooting two M1A's that were "custom built" and he was bragging over a 1.5" group....at 25 yards; and Was this guy wearing an eye patch over his shooting eye Sorry for the drift...couldn't help myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Listen, don't get too hung up on the "16 inch gas system is too violent" arguments. You'll should be using a competition compensator with whatever setup you decided to go with and it will tame your rifle movement and recoil impulse. This whole debate parallels the light/fast vs. the heavy/soft pistol setups. The carbine rifles will cycle a little harder, but they track faster. The full size rifles are softer, but a little slower. Regardless, a good compensator will cause both rifles to be a "wash" with very little difference between the two. In the end, it will be the operator's skill that will make the difference. Until this season I shot a 16" Bushmaster Dissipator setup and I still recommend the 16" guns for open or tactical divisions. This year I switched to an 18" setup, but only because I couldn't get a reasonably priced 16 SS barrel in the configuration I wanted without paying $500 for just the barrel. I"m currently using an JP 18" ultra-light barrel, but if JP offered the barrel in a 16" version, that's what I would have. Don't worry about the gas system. I won't go into all the other reasons I like the shorter rifles, there are other threads concerning that topic. Try a full size and a carbine setup and see which one handles better for you. Then get a good practice rountine and make it happen. KellyN, I agree with you on the comps issue. I just love embarrassing the tactical types with my M-4 (with compensator). When they tell me it gives off too much flash, I just reply "that's ok, by the time you locate my flash, I'll have a second round off (if needed) and you won't be around to notice the second one" Good shooting, Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Pacman, And a 3" scar on his cheek. GRRRR! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Erik, I have to respectfully disagree. I don't feel that 16s track faster. When was the last MAJOR 3 gun match anywhere won with a 16 in rifle? I'm sure it's happened sometime, somewhere. I think KurtM did so a few years but that's about it. Who competes a fullsized AR? Miculek, Voigt, Holmes, Piatt, Cooley, Lamb, KurtM, Butler, Rhodes, Bednorz, Salmon, Kempton, and Clark. That's pretty good company. In fact, I think those guys win everything. I'm not unfamiliar with the 16. I have one. I even competed with one at SOF one year. I think I was 14th. 1st through 13th had a full sized gun (and they shot better than me too!) Pacman, while I have nothing against highpower guys (since I come from their ranks) I would note the fastest they have to shoot is 10 shots in 60 seconds with a 12 lb + AR. Hardly a high factor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Kelly, While I'm certain that list is accurate and quite impressive. I don't think it represents the recent trend towards shorter, lighter guns. I think you'll start seeing more of the shorter setups. I think (don't quote me) Voight is going to an 18" and I"m pretty sure Taran's is an 18". Jeff Cramblit shoots an 18" and Frank Garcia uses a 16". Of course, don't forget several of those shooters used to shoot iron sights and used the 20" rifles for the longer sight radius advantages, not just the smoother/softer recoil impulse. Once again, don't quote me, but I think Trapr Swonson is also using an 18". While I concede there have not been too many major's won, I think its only a matter of time. I think some shooters are starting to realize that most rifle stages tend to be closer and tighter rather than longer and wide open. Mainly due to shooting bay sizes and lack of long range facilities. On another issue, I will have to respectfully disagree with you concerning the manuverability of the shorter guns. They are faster in setups and transitions. Most of the time it didn't matter or it didn't get noticed because the hit factors were so low, but with the quicker/closer/higher hit factor stages, setups/dismounts/transitions are becoming more important. I think it's a huge mistake to ignore these considerations when setting up a 3 gun rifle. Setups and transitions matter with a pistol, they will also make a difference with a rifle. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 When I say "full sized" I mean full sized gas system, which includes the 18 inchers - my favorite general purpose length for a scoped AR. My critique is levelled at the ARs with shorty gas systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkerton Posted June 5, 2004 Author Share Posted June 5, 2004 Does the mid length on the 16" barrel make a diffrence over the carbine length gas system? Thanks, Pinkerton OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 The 16" is the carbine. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Does the mid length on the 16" barrel make a diffrence over the carbine length gas system?Thanks, Pinkerton OUT! I had a mid-length 16" and to tell you the truth, I couldn't really tell any difference in the operating system. Bear1142, I agree with you, in general. I did notice how much quicker the 16" shouldered versus the 20". I was going to use the 16" for our local matches where we don't go beyond the 200 yards distance, but realized that switching guns between practices for the big matches and local matches is just not the thing to do. With enough practice, I've found that the 20" can be maneuvered just a quick, once it is shouldered. If I ever get a shorter than 20" upper, it will be something really...really short, like a class III 11" or 7.5" (got to play with a 7.5" AR yesterday, oh man, that was the coolest toy...no good in anything other than short range stuff however) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Kelly, I am trying to talk Guy into shooting a 10" 9mm AR for Raton.....in tactical IRON class....!!! Garret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Helmut, I plan on shooting and iron sight AR chambered in .32acp with a 32" barrel to maximize the velocity potential of the cartridge. It has a gas tube that is 1 1/2 times longer than a standard full size tube to help tame the massive recoil this cartridge creates. I call it my 'Dawn of the Dead Zombie killer rifle! Guy (My name is Guy...........and I am a smartass! LOL! Got to have fun!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkerton Posted June 6, 2004 Author Share Posted June 6, 2004 GL, You have sloved my problem. I'm going to get a .25acp with a 34 in barrel with a gas trap system.... Thank you all!!! Pinkerton OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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