remoandiris Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Suppose...the BOD recognizing the trend of clubs to require such a rule decided to make it a USPSA rule? Will you now stop shooting and sell all your stuff or will you adapt to reloading in the low ready position or some other way to accommodate the rule change? IMHO this is a lot of wind about nothing. WHen you go to someone else's range you have to abide by their rules.... or you can stay the fudge home. If the USPSA BOD makes it a rule, I am happy to oblige...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER USPSA SHOOTER! But until that happens, anyone with a little skill knows the current reload method of keeping the mag well in line with the eyes and target is faster than any other method. If one range forces shooters to reload differently, those USPSA shooters are at a disadvantage when they compete against others without the reload method restriction. So keep thinking this is all about nothing. When you get smoked by a lower classified shooter at THEIR range, and it comes down to reloads, next time you may decide to stay the fudge home. So what you are saying is that you are more concerned about losing a second or two in a match instead of actually having a place to hold a match. Please take the time to educate yourself on the increasing regulatory hurdles, development pressures and the reasons used to shut ranges down. If people continue to refuse to educate themselves and not take action on these issues then you're not going to have a place to shoot. I have tried to understand the other position but I just can't. We know shooting over the berm is a big No No. We also know that to shoot over the berm the muzzle must be pointed over the berm. We also know all it takes is one round over the berm that hits little Susie. Then you get to see the distraught parents hovering over little Susie's bed in the children's intensive care ward of the local hospital. Pictures in the paper and interviews of the parents on the local news. That's followed by calls to local media along with letters to the editor of the local newspaper demanding that this dangerous place be closed as there is no reason in this day and time for it to even exist. The anti's will jump in and before you know it the range is shut down. You've lost your local range. So now where are you going to shoot. Probably nowhere as things like this seem to have legs of their own with the resulting consequences of multiple ranges shutdown or operations seriously curtailed in some manner. So tell me how far are you willing to drive to practice. How far to shoot a match. An hour. Maybe 2. What about 4 or more. If something as simple as a " don't point your muzzle over the berm rule" can prevent the above scenario then why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Not pointing the muzzle over the berm won't prevent a shot from going over the berm. The only thing that will stop that round are higher berms or not allowing live ammunition on the range. Edited January 3, 2012 by kmca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) The USPSA has rules that prohibit reloading, clearing malfunctions and moving more than one step while keeping the finger inside the trigger guard. Reloading, clearing malfunctions and moving are actions that lend themselves to the shooter's pointing the muzzle above the berm. IF USPSA RULES ARE FOLLOWED, THEN THE FIREARM WILL NOT FIRE WHILE THE MUZZLE IS POINTED OVER THE BERM. Adding an additional rule is quite unlikely to reduce rounds over the berm (a very rare occasion now) but is likely to increase the number of DQ's during matches. In fact, a "low ready" reload makes the RO's observation of the reload and the trigger finger difficult and will, IMO, lead to MORE negligent discharges during reloads and malfunction clearing with the increased subsequent dangers that NDs bring. If WTG and others are unsuccessful in convincing the range owners/managers/BOD that USPSA shooting is safer than almost any other shooting discipline because of its safety consciousness, rulebook and RO procedures and programs, then the range is not the place for USPSA shooting. Ranges who try to run "action matches" under their own rules and procedures and their uncertified and untrained ROs will almost certainly find the matches less safe than USPSA matches. Little Suzie will not be out of danger. USPSA will lose the revenue and USPSA matches will lose venues. That is the way life goes sometimes. Edited January 3, 2012 by rgkeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Also if a range hosts a 3-gun match, and one of the CoF's tosses a clay pigeon that would make a shotgun muzzle go over the berm, is the shooter allowed to track the target through it's entire arc, or will the muzzle of the shotgun have to remain below the berm at all times? Or will the range simply disallow any CoF's that would have this kind of target presentation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Also if a range hosts a 3-gun match, and one of the CoF's tosses a clay pigeon that would make a shotgun muzzle go over the berm, is the shooter allowed to track the target through it's entire arc, or will the muzzle of the shotgun have to remain below the berm at all times? Or will the range simply disallow any CoF's that would have this kind of target presentation? Good point.. Last couple years,i've been a MD for an IDPA match out west and both times there were several shooters doing the "Gunsite Reload" and it worried several SO's,but i didn't have an issue with it as the finger was out of the trigger and slide was back..Shot at the Double Tapp match this year[which was awesome],and a shooter let one go over the berm into a storage building..Another shooter shooting single stack was reloading doing the muzzle up big time every time and a couple RO's did say something about the way he reloaded,but that was it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. Tim, IMHO and not speaking for him, I believe his point is the WAY the vote occurred in the other thread. It's well taken - even if those well meaning volunteers did what they could - that the rule is NOT "of the people" - yet, it still happened. Edited January 3, 2012 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. Tim, IMHO and not speaking for him, I believe his point is the WAY the vote occurred in the other thread. It's well taken - even if those well meaning volunteers did what they could - that the rule is NOT "of the people" - yet, it still happened. I don't agree with that, either. Nobody can say that this forum's poll is a representative sample. I may be biased, however, because I fully support the 3 lb limit and I'd make it 5 if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. I agree, sometimes we need to turn of the volume to be heard, but I hope the days of ignoring us are behind... at least for the foreseeable future. After all, they have to deal with Kyle now and I'm pretty sure that stfu won't work with him. In fact I bet there would be a discussion about it after the meeting. I know anyone on my board tells me to stfu and I'm not going to sit still for it. I don't care if it's the prez or not, there will be words if not more. JT Edited January 3, 2012 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. I agree, sometimes we need to turn of the volume to be heard, but I hope the days of ignoring us are behind... at least for the foreseeable future. After all they have to deal with Kyle now! lmao JT Beware the wrath of Flexmoney! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. I agree, sometimes we need to turn of the volume to be heard, but I hope the days of ignoring us are behind... at least for the foreseeable future. After all they have to deal with Kyle now! lmao JT Beware the wrath of Flexmoney! Ya, somehow I don't think his reaction to stfu would be to actually do it. hehehe Edited January 3, 2012 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 So what you are saying is that you are more concerned about losing a second or two in a match instead of actually having a place to hold a match. Not even close. I am concerned about fairness to USPSA competitors across the country. USPSA shooters at your range are at a disadvantage to shooters at other ranges. We know shooting over the berm is a big No No. We also know that to shoot over the berm the muzzle must be pointed over the berm. No one here ever advocated, implied or said shooting over a berm is o.k. We also know all it takes is one round over the berm that hits little Susie. Then you get to see the distraught parents hovering over little Susie's bed in the children's intensive care ward of the local hospital. Pictures in the paper and interviews of the parents on the local news. That's followed by calls to local media along with letters to the editor of the local newspaper demanding that this dangerous place be closed as there is no reason in this day and time for it to even exist. The anti's will jump in and before you know it the range is shut down. You've lost your local range. And so the fearmongering and tugging at heartstrings starts. There was a kid in Fla killed by a stray New Years celebratory bullet. There was an Amish girl killed by a stray bullet in Ohio. Let's just ban all guns. If something as simple as a " don't point your muzzle over the berm rule" can prevent the above scenario then why not. Because it is likely impossible for an RO to fairly evaluate if every shooter s/he runs reloads with the muzzle NOT pointing over the berm. It IT possible for an RO to fairly evaluate if a shooter keep his/her finger outside of the trigger guard during a reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. Tim, IMHO and not speaking for him, I believe his point is the WAY the vote occurred in the other thread. It's well taken - even if those well meaning volunteers did what they could - that the rule is NOT "of the people" - yet, it still happened. Aztec took my meaning the way I intended it. I am one of those hard working USPSA volunteers, too, at the local level and I have been even before I joined USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Except it's not a DQable offense and never will be, because our membership isn't asleep at the switch enough to ever allow that to be a rule. You seem to think the membership votes on rules. Muzzles over the berm COULD become a rule if the BOD feels it is important enough. Refer to the 3lb production trigger thread. Will that be overturned? Maybe. But for now, it is a rule that goes into effect in less than 365 days. You seem to think that the BOD doesn't represent the members, whereas I don't share that opinion. The BOD is full of people who were: 1. elected by the members 2. are serious shooters and 3. talk to a lot of shooters/members. The suggestion that they "might" be completely out of touch with the members isn't supported by my own observations. This sport is full of a whole lot of very hard working volunteers. I agree, sometimes we need to turn of the volume to be heard, but I hope the days of ignoring us are behind... at least for the foreseeable future. After all they have to deal with Kyle now! lmao JT Beware the wrath of Flexmoney! Ya, somehow I don't think his reaction to stfu would be to actually do it. hehehe I can hear him now. Use of that kind of language is against the rules. This conversation is closed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Reloading, clearing malfunctions and moving are actions that lend themselves to the shooter's pointing the muzzle above the berm. IF USPSA RULES ARE FOLLOWED, THEN THE FIREARM WILL NOT FIRE WHILE THE MUZZLE IS POINTED OVER THE BERM. You can't say that. You are slamming a magazine into the gun. its not like it is just sitting there. The only way to be sure a round wont go over the berm during any of the procedures you mentioned is to not point the muzzle over the berm. Club elections are very soon and I am in hopes that enough club members show up that enjoy the action shooting sports and we elect a more USPSA and IDPA friendly BOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I wonder what we would do with the revolver guys. I don't think I've ever seen anyone, D class or GM, reload a revolver without pointing it over the berm. I also know of no range--USPSA, competition, or otherwise, that DQs shooters for pointing a firearm over the berm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lange22250 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not pointing the muzzle over the berm won't prevent a shot from going over the berm. The only thing that will stop that round are higher berms or not allowing live ammunition on the range. I'm sort of baffled by this statement. If the muzzle is pointed at a berm during an ND or any other discharge how will the round go over the berm, aside from a ricochet which will not have anywhere near the energy or travel anywhere near the distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not pointing the muzzle over the berm won't prevent a shot from going over the berm. The only thing that will stop that round are higher berms or not allowing live ammunition on the range. I'm sort of baffled by this statement. If the muzzle is pointed at a berm during an ND or any other discharge how will the round go over the berm, aside from a ricochet which will not have anywhere near the energy or travel anywhere near the distance? I meant, having a rule about not pointing over a berm, won't stop someone from launching one over the berm. If a shot can go over a berm, someone will do it, unless live ammunition is not allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lange22250 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Also if a range hosts a 3-gun match, and one of the CoF's tosses a clay pigeon that would make a shotgun muzzle go over the berm, is the shooter allowed to track the target through it's entire arc, or will the muzzle of the shotgun have to remain below the berm at all times? Or will the range simply disallow any CoF's that would have this kind of target presentation? In that case the club has other worries. Lead in most states needs to be contained in impact areas and serious consequences including shutting down a range completly can occur if environmental officials find it happening. Most ranges are also required to have lead reclamation programs and random shotgun blasts make them even more costly. Our area almost lost a large range for exactly that reason and were forced to spend hundreds of thousands in legal defense and remediation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lange22250 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Ranges who try to run "action matches" under their own rules and procedures and their uncertified and untrained ROs will almost certainly find the matches less safe than USPSA matches. Little Suzie will not be out of danger. Can you please point out any other matches, outlaw or otherwise, which have any deviation from the USPSA core safety rules? The only deviations I have every seen were allowing firearm cleaning/maintenance outside of safety areas, which at a cold range bothers me not at all. I have also noticed that about half of the people who RO at USPSA matches in the PNW have never been to an RO class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lange22250 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Not pointing the muzzle over the berm won't prevent a shot from going over the berm. The only thing that will stop that round are higher berms or not allowing live ammunition on the range. I'm sort of baffled by this statement. If the muzzle is pointed at a berm during an ND or any other discharge how will the round go over the berm, aside from a ricochet which will not have anywhere near the energy or travel anywhere near the distance? I meant, having a rule about not pointing over a berm, won't stop someone from launching one over the berm. If a shot can go over a berm, someone will do it, unless live ammunition is not allowed True, but it certainly greatly reduces the probability when the number of times a muzzle is pointed over the berm is radically decreased and that is what club management is looking for. Edited January 4, 2012 by Lange22250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Club elections are very soon and I am in hopes that enough club members show up that enjoy the action shooting sports and we elect a more USPSA and IDPA friendly BOD. I'm just hoping for a board that is fair, not one that interprets rules to give exemptions to their buddies while threatening other action sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not pointing the muzzle over the berm won't prevent a shot from going over the berm. The only thing that will stop that round are higher berms or not allowing live ammunition on the range. I'm sort of baffled by this statement. If the muzzle is pointed at a berm during an ND or any other discharge how will the round go over the berm, aside from a ricochet which will not have anywhere near the energy or travel anywhere near the distance? I meant, having a rule about not pointing over a berm, won't stop someone from launching one over the berm. If a shot can go over a berm, someone will do it, unless live ammunition is not allowed True, but it certainly greatly reduces the probability when the number of times a muzzle is pointed over the berm is radically decreased and that is what club management is looking for. I don't see that it does. You have someone already breaking one safety rule with manipulating the gun with their finger in the guard. What's the chances it's now going to be pointed 10 degree difference between sky and berm at that same time. ( depending on your real berm and location). You can make it a rule all day long but it has to be followed to be effective. If they can't handle keeping a finger out of the guard unless shooting. What makes you think theyll be paying attention to exactly where that muzzle is beyond Just "down range"? Those that are going to keep the bullets in the backstop were always going to. Those that are going to throw them out - will do so anyway. Maybe your rule will catch them and ban them from the club before all three circumstances combined to do so. My biased opinion will be that it won't. Good luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 It really wont do anything to prevent it as just having a rule dosent say 100 percent it is never broken. Ok, muzzle goes over burm and a ND happens you DQ them but the round is still went over it. Having that rule did noting as they might go home even with no ND but someone will send one over there eventually before they get stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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