Reload without allowing muzzle over the berm

[West Texas Granny]

So what you are saying is that you are more concerned about losing a second or two in a match instead of actually having a place to hold a match.

Not even close. I am concerned about fairness to USPSA competitors across the country. USPSA shooters at your range are at a disadvantage to shooters at other ranges.

Well lets see. Given the number of ranked shooters with championships from State to World in all areas of of competitive shooting that shoot our range I would say there is no disadvantage shooting at our range.

We know shooting over the berm is a big No No. We also know that to shoot over the berm the muzzle must be pointed over the berm.

No one here ever advocated, implied or said shooting over a berm is o.k.

True and what I was trying to point out that in today's litigious environment that shooting ranges must operate in such a rule can go a long way to reduce the risk that ranges face today.

We also know all it takes is one round over the berm that hits little Susie. Then you get to see the distraught parents hovering over little Susie's bed in the children's intensive care ward of the local hospital. Pictures in the paper and interviews of the parents on the local news. That's followed by calls to local media along with letters to the editor of the local newspaper demanding that this dangerous place be closed as there is no reason in this day and time for it to even exist. The anti's will jump in and before you know it the range is shut down. You've lost your local range.

And so the fearmongering and tugging at heartstrings starts. There was a kid in Fla killed by a stray New Years celebratory bullet. There was an Amish girl killed by a stray bullet in Ohio. Let's just ban all guns.

Now you are getting silly. Having a rule such as not pointing the muzzle over the berm during a reload does not place any kind of undue burden on the shooter and if such a rule can prevent a range from being closed due to the real possibility of the above scenario occurring then why the heartburn. I know you mentioned you wanted the same rules across the country. You don't have that now. You have states with magazine restrictions and states without magazine restrictions so it seems to me there is already have a basis allowing a range to institute such a rule.

If something as simple as a " don't point your muzzle over the berm rule" can prevent the above scenario then why not.

Because it is likely impossible for an RO to fairly evaluate if every shooter s/he runs reloads with the muzzle NOT pointing over the berm.

It IT possible for an RO to fairly evaluate if a shooter keep his/her finger outside of the trigger guard during a reload.

And when the slide slams forward with the muzzle pointed over the berm and a round is discharged. What then?

Look I've considered the possibility of such a rule as a method to reduce risk for Ranges in highly developed areas. I don't see how such a rule would burden anyone in fact I wonder why such a rule does not already exist.

[Skydiver]

WTG brings up an interesting tangent in post #251 about litigation and states with laws about magazine capacity...

<satire>

If you really want to have a local rule to disallow the muzzle over the berm, simply go to your city/county/state legislature and have a law made making it illegal to point the muzzle over the berm in your city/county/state. That way you will work perfectly with rule 3.3 in the rule book and not need any special dispensation from the USPSA president.

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSAmatches without the express consent of the President of USPSA.

</satire>

[kmca]

WTG, do any of the state/world class champions point the muzzle over your berms when reloading? If not, I'd like to see a video of their reloading technique...I'm all for learning new things

[remoandiris]

Well lets see. Given the number of ranked shooters with championships from State to World in all areas of of competitive shooting that shoot our range I would say there is no disadvantage shooting at our range.

So what range and which shooters are you talking about?

Like another poster wrote, I too would like to see a vid of these world class champs reloading without pointing over the berm. Learning that technique would make this entire 11 page thread moot.

I have seen videos of Tomasie, Leatham, Sevigny, Jarrett, Burkett and others. they all reload the same way. I took a class from Manny Bragg a few years ago. It is exactly how he teaches.

Edited January 4, 2012 by remoandiris

[remoandiris]

Someone explain to me how WTG's mag limit has anything to do with a muzzle over the berm. A few gun unfriendly states limit mag capacity with no impact on gun violence. Is she just trolling or what?

Using her logic, since more states do NOT have a mag capacity limit, that adds MORE validity to NOT having a muzzle over the berm rule.

[remoandiris]

Double post.

Edited January 4, 2012 by remoandiris

[Skydiver]

Someone explain to me how WTG's mag limit has anything to do with a muzzle over the berm. A few gun unfriendly states limit mag capacity with no impact on gun violence. Is she just trolling or what?

Using her logic, since more states do NOT have a mag capacity limit, that adds MORE validity to NOT having a muzzle over the berm rule.

I don't think she wasn't trolling. I think she was just approaching the discussion from this perspective with regards to states with mag capacity limits: USPSA says you can load as many bullets as will fit in 171.25mm (Open) or 141.25mm (Limited) magazine. State law says you can only load 10. Therefore a range can institute a "local rule" that only limits 10 rounds per mag. Paralleling that, USPSA says you can point the muzzle anywhere within the 180. Therefore a range should be free to institute a "local rule" about muzzle over the berm as well.

The difference I was trying to point in my failed attempt at satire in post #252 was that it's not a local rule that was in play, but rather compliance with a legislation in the applicable jurisdiction.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Skydiver

[remoandiris]

Someone explain to me how WTG's mag limit has anything to do with a muzzle over the berm. A few gun unfriendly states limit mag capacity with no impact on gun violence. Is she just trolling or what?

Using her logic, since more states do NOT have a mag capacity limit, that adds MORE validity to NOT having a muzzle over the berm rule.

I don't think she wasn't trolling. I think she was just approaching the discussion from this perspective with regards to states with mag capacity limits: USPSA says you can load as many bullets as will fit in 171.25mm (Open) or 141.25mm (Limited) magazine. State law says you can only load 10. Therefore a range can institute a "local rule" that only limits 10 rounds per mag. Paralleling that, USPSA says you can point the muzzle anywhere within the 180. Therefore a range should be free to institute a "local rule" about muzzle over the berm as well.

The difference I was trying to point in my failed attempt at satire in post #252 was that it's not a local rule that was in play, but rather compliance with a legislation in the applicable jurisdiction.

O.k. I understand your explanation. I don't understand how she equates a state law with a range rule. If the state says 10 max, the range can't ignore a law unless there is a grandfather clause.

Thankfully Florida doesn't have nonsense laws like that.

Edited January 5, 2012 by remoandiris

[Chills1994]

Well lets see. Given the number of ranked shooters with championships from State to World in all areas of of competitive shooting that shoot our range I would say there is no disadvantage shooting at our range.

So what range and which shooters are you talking about?

Like another poster wrote, I too would like to see a vid of these world class champs reloading without pointing over the berm. Learning that technique would make this entire 11 page thread moot.

I have seen videos of Tomasie, Leatham, Sevigny, Jarrett, Burkett and others. they all reload the same way. I took a class from Manny Bragg a few years ago. It is exactly how he teaches.

I don't know if my question ever got answered previously....I was wondering about which range/club has 4,700 members???

anywhooo....a couple of pics... maybe you know these guys... maybe they have shot at West Texas Granny's range:

[Lange22250]

Well lets see. Given the number of ranked shooters with championships from State to World in all areas of of competitive shooting that shoot our range I would say there is no disadvantage shooting at our range.

So what range and which shooters are you talking about?

Like another poster wrote, I too would like to see a vid of these world class champs reloading without pointing over the berm. Learning that technique would make this entire 11 page thread moot.

I have seen videos of Tomasie, Leatham, Sevigny, Jarrett, Burkett and others. they all reload the same way. I took a class from Manny Bragg a few years ago. It is exactly how he teaches.

I don't know if my question ever got answered previously....I was wondering about which range/club has 4,700 members???

anywhooo....a couple of pics... maybe you know these guys... maybe they have shot at West Texas Granny's range:

Tri County Gun Club in Sherwood, Oregon. Last report had us above 4700 with an average of 70 new members a month.

[remoandiris]

Tri County Gun Club in Sherwood, Oregon. Last report had us above 4700 with an average of 70 new members a month.

Assuming you're a member of that club AND have attended the Action Area course, I would LOVE to know how the instructors teach a "speed reload", if not in the same manner the pics show.

[Lange22250]

Tri County Gun Club in Sherwood, Oregon. Last report had us above 4700 with an aveage of 70 new members a month.

Assuming you're a member of that club AND have attended the Action Area course, I would LOVE to know how the instructors teach a "speed reload", if not in the same manner the pics show.

From a flat presentation on the target, keeping the pistol at eye level roll the pistol to the strong side and bring the hand in a bit so you can see the mag well and insert mag. Muzzle stays well below the berm, pretty much in what would be the primary impact area which is the first 10 feet. Not saying that it is faster than what you see in the pics when executed by an A class and above shooters but I don't see a big time difference for everyone else.

Muzzle above the berm at any time in the class is prohibited but because they are "new" students and a new concept for them, they get up to 3 warnings before they DQ from the class. The class is also conducted emphasising safety over speed so most of it is done at a "walk" pace with the first string dry. This catches and corrects most bad habits before the ammo goes in the gun.

[Skydiver]

Tri County Gun Club in Sherwood, Oregon. Last report had us above 4700 with an aveage of 70 new members a month.

Assuming you're a member of that club AND have attended the Action Area course, I would LOVE to know how the instructors teach a "speed reload", if not in the same manner the pics show.

From a flat presentation on the target, keeping the pistol at eye level roll the pistol to the strong side and bring the hand in a bit so you can see the mag well and insert mag. Muzzle stays well below the berm, pretty much in what would be the primary impact area which is the first 10 feet. Not saying that it is faster than what you see in the pics when executed by an A class and above shooters but I don't see a big time difference for everyone else.

Muzzle above the berm at any time in the class is prohibited but because they are "new" students and a new concept for them, they get up to 3 warnings before they DQ from the class. The class is also conducted emphasising safety over speed so most of it is done at a "walk" pace with the first string dry. This catches and corrects most bad habits before the ammo goes in the gun.

Oh, I get it. If I assigned the numbers of the clock face inside the mag well with 12 o'clock toward the target, the muzzle over the berm reload would have me looking directly at 3 o'clock of the magwell (since I'm right handed), versus the muzzle at berm which would have me looking at about 12:30 or 1 o'clock. This isn't completely unnatural since it happens to me often enough when I'm reloading and crabbing to the left and I'm trying to avoid the 180.

This works great if the gun fits my hand perfectly where I never have to shift my grip to hit the mag release (like with CZ's and Tanfoglios with thin grips). If the gun doesn't fit perfectly (like for 1911's, HK's, and Glocks for me), I would still need to "flip" the gun in my grip to hit the mag release. "Flipping" the gun to hit the mag release will still risk getting muzzle over the berm. For me, I'll just have to do the flip before tilting the gun, instead of while tilting the gun. This increases the risk of a dropped gun until I build up enough practice hours.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Skydiver

[Lange22250]

Tri County Gun Club in Sherwood, Oregon. Last report had us above 4700 with an aveage of 70 new members a month.

Assuming you're a member of that club AND have attended the Action Area course, I would LOVE to know how the instructors teach a "speed reload", if not in the same manner the pics show.

From a flat presentation on the target, keeping the pistol at eye level roll the pistol to the strong side and bring the hand in a bit so you can see the mag well and insert mag. Muzzle stays well below the berm, pretty much in what would be the primary impact area which is the first 10 feet. Not saying that it is faster than what you see in the pics when executed by an A class and above shooters but I don't see a big time difference for everyone else.

Muzzle above the berm at any time in the class is prohibited but because they are "new" students and a new concept for them, they get up to 3 warnings before they DQ from the class. The class is also conducted emphasising safety over speed so most of it is done at a "walk" pace with the first string dry. This catches and corrects most bad habits before the ammo goes in the gun.

Oh, I get it. If I assigned the numbers of the clock face inside the mag well with 12 o'clock toward the target, the muzzle over the berm reload would have me looking directly at 3 o'clock of the magwell (since I'm right handed), versus the muzzle at berm which would have me looking at about 12:30 or 1 o'clock. This isn't completely unnatural since it happens to me often enough when I'm reloading and crabbing to the left and I'm trying to avoid the 180.

This works great if the gun fits my hand perfectly where I never have to shift my grip to hit the mag release (like with CZ's and Tanfoglios with thin grips). If the gun doesn't fit perfectly (like for 1911's, HK's, and Glocks for me), I would still need to "flip" the gun in my grip to hit the mag release. "Flipping" the gun to hit the mag release will still risk getting muzzle over the berm. For me, I'll just have to do the flip before tilting the gun, instead of while tilting the gun. This increases the risk of a dropped gun until I build up enough practice hours.

Dude, you put way too much time into that one. I may have to steal it.

[remoandiris]

Not saying that it is faster than what you see in the pics when executed by an A class and above shooters but I don't see a big time difference for everyone else.

Seems like you think only A and above want/need to be faster than their contemporaries. The other classes be damned.

They need to call it the "not so speedy reload" or "almost speed reload".

As I mentioned before, a mediocre shooter is less likely to care about local rules that slow down competition shooters. When places of finish are decided by tenths of seconds, tenths of seconds matter.

[Yardbird]

Just tried it... I have to flip the gun a bit to reach the mag release and find it almost impossible to not raise the muzzle as I'm rotating for the button.

[wileecoyote37]

I'm sure none of us would point a pistol at another person even if we were keeping our finger out of the trigger guard. The way development has crowded ranges in many area, every time we point our pistol over the brem we are really pointing that pistol at a neighbor. Just because we can't see the nieghbor does that make it right? Even without a rule I think we should do all we can to keep that muzzle down. In my case it will take a lot of retraining but it seems to me to be the right thing to do. I know most if not all the pro's teach reloading with the muzzle up but the new reality may mean we all need to work at keeping the muzzle down - even without a new rule.

[Chills1994]

Just tried it... I have to flip the gun a bit to reach the mag release and find it almost impossible to not raise the muzzle as I'm rotating for the button.

With my Beretta, I have switched the MRB to the right side and hit it with my strong side/right hand middle finger. In my opinion, the gun is more vertical that way, and the mags drop out better or faster...and I don't have to do the thumb flippey thing.

Alternatively, if your MRB is still on the left side, you can hit the MRB with your weakhand thumb as your weakhand comes off the gun on the way to the fresh mag.

However, at least for me, in terms of muscle memory/habit, the muzzle is going to get pointed over the berm when the fresh mag gets inserted.

For my 1911's, if I still want to keep them IDPA legal with a normal sized MRB, I still have to do the flip thing so my thumb can reach the MRB.

Let's say that a gun club existed at some location since, oh, the 1960's or so, and then a house was built a half mile past the back berms, does the city or the county that issued the building permit share in any liability if a bullet were to leave the range and strike a house, car, garage, a person?

With threads like these....MAN! it's gonna be a long winter....let's get back to shooting matches!

[West Texas Granny]

Someone explain to me how WTG's mag limit has anything to do with a muzzle over the berm. A few gun unfriendly states limit mag capacity with no impact on gun violence. Is she just trolling or what?

Using her logic, since more states do NOT have a mag capacity limit, that adds MORE validity to NOT having a muzzle over the berm rule.

I don't think she wasn't trolling. I think she was just approaching the discussion from this perspective with regards to states with mag capacity limits: USPSA says you can load as many bullets as will fit in 171.25mm (Open) or 141.25mm (Limited) magazine. State law says you can only load 10. Therefore a range can institute a "local rule" that only limits 10 rounds per mag. Paralleling that, USPSA says you can point the muzzle anywhere within the 180. Therefore a range should be free to institute a "local rule" about muzzle over the berm as well.

The difference I was trying to point in my failed attempt at satire in post #252 was that it's not a local rule that was in play, but rather compliance with a legislation in the applicable jurisdiction.

O.k. I understand your explanation. I don't understand how she equates a state law with a range rule. If the state says 10 max, the range can't ignore a law unless there is a grandfather clause.

Thankfully Florida doesn't have nonsense laws like that.

One poster stated their dissastification about having to adapt to different rules at ranges across the country. They were stating they wanted the same rules everywhere USPSA matches are held. Take that position and place it in the context of another ongoing discussion where there is the desire to change Production from 10 rounds to 15. If such an action was to occur you would have two sets of rules due to the ban on mags of greater than 10 rounds in some areas. So if it's ok to have a variation in the rules to accomplish a change to 15 rounds in production then their should be no problem dealing with a local safety rule that prevents a muzzle from being pointed over the berm. After all the local safety rule is there because it needs to be there not because someone is trying to give USPSA shooters grief.

With ranges disappearing at an alarming rate due to shots impacting past the berms and encroaching development one would think that such a simple rule would be acceptable. The fewer ranges available to shoot at mean fewer shooters and less power to prevent restrictions on our ability to own and shoot our guns. While the anti's my be losing on the issue of gun ownership they can still achieve their goals by making it impossible for ranges to remain open. Then what do you do?

Edited January 8, 2012 by West Texas Granny

[remoandiris]

With ranges disappearing at an alarming rate due to shots impacting past the berms and encroaching development one would think that such a simple rule would be acceptable. The fewer ranges available to shoot at mean fewer shooters and less power to prevent restrictions on our ability to own and shoot our guns. While the anti's my be losing on the issue of gun ownership they can still achieve their goals by making it impossible for ranges to remain open. Then what do you do?

What ranges have disappeared due to shots impacting past the berm?

What ranges have disappeared due to encroachment?

[remoandiris]

One poster stated their dissastification about having to adapt to different rules at ranges across the country. They were stating they wanted the same rules everywhere USPSA matches are held. Take that position and place it in the context of another ongoing discussion where there is the desire to change Production from 10 rounds to 15. If such an action was to occur you would have two sets of rules due to the ban on mags of greater than 10 rounds in some areas. So if it's ok to have a variation in the rules to accomplish a change to 15 rounds in production then their should be no problem dealing with a local safety rule that prevents a muzzle from being pointed over the berm. After all the local safety rule is there because it needs to be there not because someone is trying to give USPSA shooters grief.

Your post is a faulty analogy.

If a local club REQUIRED 15 rounds in Production, that would be a clear violation of USPSA rules...just like a local club REQUIRING a reload in a certain manner/direction.

[Skydiver]

WileECoyote37's range is currently fighting to stay open. I'll not put in anymore details because I want this thread to stay open, but PM me for details.

(Okay, gotta do a gear check and pack it up to go shoot at a match.)

Edited January 8, 2012 by Skydiver

[Seeker]

I have been following this thread since the beginning. It's interesting how each and every one of us interprets the issues, and offers input to hopefully rectify the "problem" without undue agony. What I have not seen in abundance, is the philosophy that firearm safety is not about posted rules, but about knowledge, discipline, attention to detail and Always knowing where your firearm is in relation to the target, berm, backstop etc. No amount of rules is going to turn a poorly trained gun handler into a safe gun handler. This is even more important when we are talking about unsupervised action areas that can be used for practice. At this time, the USPSA shooters are under the magnifying glass most likely because of the perception of "fast and lose" gun handing that the uninitiated does not realize is 100% under control by athletes with a tremendous amount of hours spent in training, honing these skills.

It's apparent that negative perception is strongly influencing the opinion of those outside of the sport. It is interesting that we "trust" that Shotgunners participating in trap and skeet will "always" load their shot gun with 7 1/2 bird shot, right? We are nor worried that some one may accidentally load a slug or 00Buck. Think about it. The Shot gunners "Always" have their muzzles pointed above the berm. In smaller ranges a slug can easily be launched into neighboring areas.

The steadfast diligence of keeping all rounds in the range is of the utmost importance, however there are ways of insuring this without neutering the sport of USPSA.

I would recommend to the op that "all" users of the action area "must" be first tested and certified that they have all the necessary knowledge, training and discipline to insure safe gun handing starting.

This is not only a USPSA issue. After USPSA has been "put down" for the good of the range, IDPA and finally SASS with be the next targets.

Then they can consider the safety implications of a High power rifle range.

Think about it.

[remoandiris]

I would recommend to the op that "all" users of the action area "must" be first tested and certified that they have all the necessary knowledge, training and discipline to insure safe gun handing starting.

When the majority of votes on a club's BoD don't think it is something that needs attention, or the majority of votes would rather argue than act, the status quo remains. When everyone is responsible, no one is responsible.

All of your points have been brought up and voted down by the majority on the board. Not a unanimous vote by any stretch, but enough votes were/are there.

[JKSNIPER]

remoandiris,

The range closest to my home almost was shut down permanently because they THOUGHT that a round that impacted outside the range had come from that particular range.

After an investigation it was discovered that It in fact had NOT come from the range but was fired elsewhere...... but that didn't matter to anyone at the time and the range came about as close to being shut down permanently as you can come without actually being shut down.

Here on Long Island theres not a great # of ranges to choose from so if one gets shut down it hurts the local shooting community a LOT.

I'm fortunate that I still can "piggyback" onto friends still active in LE and go with them to their range but that doesn't help the rest of the community here

I understand that reloading with the weapon held in certain positions IS faster and more efficient and is what we taught to do in actual shooting situations when I instructed shooters at the PD BUT if a guy is rushing his reload and gets fumble fingered and lets one go at the wrong time the D.Q. he gets won't solve the potential problem for the range.

Having the rule in place stating no muzzles pointing over the berm would help to show the range is doing everything it can to keep the community outside the ranges borders safe.

In Florida a friend was visiting a training class at a range there and within 10 seconds of saying hello to his buddies there was screaming "Cease fire" at the top of his lungs. Apparently 2 young boys had ridden their bicycles up the backside of the berm and were sitting on top on the berm looking around.

No one on the line noticed them (scoped rifle class) everyone was buried in their glass or spotting scopes.

We have to realize that the areas that were barren of development when the ranges we shoot at were built are now being bulldozed for housing. And boy do those people complain.

Our PD range had a race track next door when it first went into operation. Then the racetrack went away and they built a senior citizen housing community right next door to where the P.D. conducts EVOC and 4 live firing ranges along with the fireworks burn pits and the explosive training area.

They moved in MANY years after the range was in full operation and yet they constantly complain about shooting too early in the AM too late at night (range is shut down after 10 pm because of this) and the EVOC sirens...etc

Add a round or two leaving the range to the mix and I'll bet a local politician will get involved to get it shut down.