Reload without allowing muzzle over the berm

[aztecdriver]

You are also missing the point. USPSA shooters are NOT the problem. Local club/range board members who don't care about USPSA rules ARE the problem.

2d, clubs are NOT asking for exemptions. They are implementing rules without USPSA consent.

I do NOT want an over-the-berm rule. I do NOT want USPSA matches to end because some temporary board/board member thinks USPSA is too "fast and loose".

I want to shoot my chosen sport within it's published rules.

Now - we're on the same page...

[aztecdriver]

How about the typical rule they have at most public ranges "no rapid fire".

Lots of indoor ranges have that rule, too, except during matches.

Bingo - we have a match that we violate just about 6 range "rules" every match.

[aztecdriver]

So, ranges which have a rule against double tapping steel cannot hold USPSA matches?

And ranges which have a rule against shooting side berms cannot hold USPSA matches?

Sure they can - just don't put up rearward falling steel and don't put up targets that can be engaged and hit the side berm - notice I said ENGAGED not shot. If I miss left and you DQ me because I hit the left berm- I call BS.

Edited December 30, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Schutzenmeister]

And if the range owner said, "hit the side well and you are out of here" this would not be a USPSA match. Don't send in the classifiers.

I suggest you reread 10.4.1 ... You CAN specify something like that by declaring hitting the side wall a shot fired in an unsafe direction. Put it in the WSB and make sure there is no LEGITIMATE shot at the target that will impact the side wall. (At a Level I, this CAN include specifying WHERE a given target may or may not be shot from.)

[Chuck Anderson]

So, ranges which have a rule against double tapping steel cannot hold USPSA matches?

I had to work with some clubs on this one. They actually DQ'd a shooter not long ago for doing this. The club had announced during the shooters meeting that you couldn't drive down steel. Unfortunately the shooter, a notoriously fast on the trigger GM, couldn't hold back round 2. In fact he shot them so fast the steel was still straight up when the second round hit, (I watched the video). The club was concerned about ricochets leaving the range. I don't have it available any more, but the shooter actually sent me a study that was done to determine safe angles for steel and distance from the berm. We came up with several options for the range, rather than an illegal rule. It all came down to stage design. Placement of poppers right up against the berm, Forward Falling Poppers, steel plates, not using RFP's as a means to activate drop turners or other targets. Basically taking away the reasons people try to drive down poppers. That combined with better placement on the bay eliminates concerns about the steel.

[Schutzenmeister]

So, ranges which have a rule against double tapping steel cannot hold USPSA matches?

I had to work with some clubs on this one. They actually DQ'd a shooter not long ago for doing this. The club had announced during the shooters meeting that you couldn't drive down steel. Unfortunately the shooter, a notoriously fast on the trigger GM, couldn't hold back round 2. In fact he shot them so fast the steel was still straight up when the second round hit, (I watched the video). The club was concerned about ricochets leaving the range. I don't have it available any more, but the shooter actually sent me a study that was done to determine safe angles for steel and distance from the berm. We came up with several options for the range, rather than an illegal rule. It all came down to stage design. Placement of poppers right up against the berm, Forward Falling Poppers, steel plates, not using RFP's as a means to activate drop turners or other targets. Basically taking away the reasons people try to drive down poppers. That combined with better placement on the bay eliminates concerns about the steel.

Chuck

If I may ... Something I have only seen on rare occasion here in the States, but rather more commonly at large international (and/or indoor range) matches: It is possible to construct a large shroud around a Popper such that splatter and/or richochets are trapped/deflected rather than leaving the range. Just one more tool to consider.

Mike

[Chuck Anderson]

So, ranges which have a rule against double tapping steel cannot hold USPSA matches?

I had to work with some clubs on this one. They actually DQ'd a shooter not long ago for doing this. The club had announced during the shooters meeting that you couldn't drive down steel. Unfortunately the shooter, a notoriously fast on the trigger GM, couldn't hold back round 2. In fact he shot them so fast the steel was still straight up when the second round hit, (I watched the video). The club was concerned about ricochets leaving the range. I don't have it available any more, but the shooter actually sent me a study that was done to determine safe angles for steel and distance from the berm. We came up with several options for the range, rather than an illegal rule. It all came down to stage design. Placement of poppers right up against the berm, Forward Falling Poppers, steel plates, not using RFP's as a means to activate drop turners or other targets. Basically taking away the reasons people try to drive down poppers. That combined with better placement on the bay eliminates concerns about the steel.

Chuck

If I may ... Something I have only seen on rare occasion here in the States, but rather more commonly at large international (and/or indoor range) matches: It is possible to construct a large shroud around a Popper such that splatter and/or richochets are trapped/deflected rather than leaving the range. Just one more tool to consider.

Mike

Thanks for reminding me. I saw those down in Ecuador and forgot about them.

[remoandiris]

And if the range owner said, "hit the side well and you are out of here" this would not be a USPSA match. Don't send in the classifiers.

I suggest you reread 10.4.1 ... You CAN specify something like that by declaring hitting the side wall a shot fired in an unsafe direction. Put it in the WSB and make sure there is no LEGITIMATE shot at the target that will impact the side wall. (At a Level I, this CAN include specifying WHERE a given target may or may not be shot from.)

1.1.5.1 is the other half of the answer (Level 1 only), and, IMO, the more appropriate rule to cite. No one knows if the rulebook authors thought of using unsafe direction as a means to avoid shooting at a side wall. I believe most people that read 10.4.1 think more of outdoor ranges, especially considering rounds going over berms isn't something that happens indoors. I suppose a backstop could be considered an indoor bullet trap.

Edited December 30, 2011 by remoandiris

[aztecdriver]

And if the range owner said, "hit the side well and you are out of here" this would not be a USPSA match. Don't send in the classifiers.

I suggest you reread 10.4.1 ... You CAN specify something like that by declaring hitting the side wall a shot fired in an unsafe direction. Put it in the WSB and make sure there is no LEGITIMATE shot at the target that will impact the side wall. (At a Level I, this CAN include specifying WHERE a given target may or may not be shot from.)

1.1.5.1 is the other half of the answer (Level 1 only), and, IMO, the more appropriate rule to cite. No one knows if the rulebook authors thought of using unsafe direction as a means to avoid shooting at a side wall. I believe most people that read 10.4.1 think more of outdoor ranges, especially considering rounds going over berms isn't something that happens indoors. I suppose a backstop could be considered an indoor bullet trap.

As long as you don't make it possible for me to miss a target, that is a legitimate engagement, but then I miss the target 6 inches to the left which has me strike the wall. 10.4.1 does have the exception - Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

[remoandiris]

1.1.5.1 is the other half of the answer (Level 1 only), and, IMO, the more appropriate rule to cite. No one knows if the rulebook authors thought of using unsafe direction as a means to avoid shooting at a side wall. I believe most people that read 10.4.1 think more of outdoor ranges, especially considering rounds going over berms isn't something that happens indoors. I suppose a backstop could be considered an indoor bullet trap.

As long as you don't make it possible for me to miss a target, that is a legitimate engagement, but then I miss the target 6 inches to the left which has me strike the wall. 10.4.1 does have the exception - Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

I disagree with your interpretation, unless we are just not communicating clearly...that never happens. 1.1.5.1 says I can tell you where you can engage a target at a Level I match. Doesn't matter if the target is visible from multiple locations or not, you are only permitted to engage that target from spot "X". If you engage it from anywhere else and you hit the sidewall, that is an AD according to 10.4.1.

[ima45dv8]

1.1.5.1 is the other half of the answer (Level 1 only), and, IMO, the more appropriate rule to cite. No one knows if the rulebook authors thought of using unsafe direction as a means to avoid shooting at a side wall. I believe most people that read 10.4.1 think more of outdoor ranges, especially considering rounds going over berms isn't something that happens indoors. I suppose a backstop could be considered an indoor bullet trap.

As long as you don't make it possible for me to miss a target, that is a legitimate engagement, but then I miss the target 6 inches to the left which has me strike the wall. 10.4.1 does have the exception - Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

I disagree with your interpretation, unless we are just not communicating clearly...that never happens. 1.1.5.1 says I can tell you where you can engage a target at a Level I match. Doesn't matter if the target is visible from multiple locations or not, you are only permitted to engage that target from spot "X". If you engage it from anywhere else and you hit the sidewall, that is an AD according to 10.4.1.

I abhor speaking for Ken, because he has a sharp mind and is capable of speaking for himself.

However....

1.1.5.1 says you can tell me from where I engage a target at a Level I match. That's true. What it doesn't say (and isn't allowed to tell me) is what happens to an errant shot. If you specify I have to engage T1 from Box 1, and my shot goes wide and strikes the wall, there's no rule in USPSA to support a penalty or DQ. It's just a bad shot. Not an AD...just a poorly delivered shot. The second sentence in 10.4 1 saves the competitor.

[rgkeller]

Unless, of course, there is a range rule.

But, then, this would not be a USPSA match.

[remoandiris]

1.1.5.1 is the other half of the answer (Level 1 only), and, IMO, the more appropriate rule to cite. No one knows if the rulebook authors thought of using unsafe direction as a means to avoid shooting at a side wall. I believe most people that read 10.4.1 think more of outdoor ranges, especially considering rounds going over berms isn't something that happens indoors. I suppose a backstop could be considered an indoor bullet trap.

As long as you don't make it possible for me to miss a target, that is a legitimate engagement, but then I miss the target 6 inches to the left which has me strike the wall. 10.4.1 does have the exception - Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

I disagree with your interpretation, unless we are just not communicating clearly...that never happens. 1.1.5.1 says I can tell you where you can engage a target at a Level I match. Doesn't matter if the target is visible from multiple locations or not, you are only permitted to engage that target from spot "X". If you engage it from anywhere else and you hit the sidewall, that is an AD according to 10.4.1.

I abhor speaking for Ken, because he has a sharp mind and is capable of speaking for himself.

However....

1.1.5.1 says you can tell me from where I engage a target at a Level I match. That's true. What it doesn't say (and isn't allowed to tell me) is what happens to an errant shot. If you specify I have to engage T1 from Box 1, and my shot goes wide and strikes the wall, there's no rule in USPSA to support a penalty or DQ. It's just a bad shot. Not an AD...just a poorly delivered shot. The second sentence in 10.4 1 saves the competitor.

I smell what you're cooking, but, if the WSB says shoot target "X" from spot "Y" only AND the WSB declares the sidewall an unsafe direction (just like over the berm), yet a competitor does it anyway, I see an argument for DQ based on 10.4.1, regardless of the second sentence in 10.4.1. It is definitely a tricky subject.

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe.

I think target placement would go a long way to determining IF an errant, but legit shot, could hit the sidewall. If it is a legit shot, the target placement probably is to blame. If that is the case, the second part of 10.4.1 would be a definite force.

Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

[Chills1994]

Actually they are fine if only shot once... the problem is when you shoot them as they are falling. If the angle is right you they can skip like a stone on water.

At first blush, yeah, that makes sense, but has anybody ever tried to capture it on film...maybe with tracers...at some range where there is nothing but dirt, rocks, yucca plants, and rattle snakes beyond what would be the back berm.

Could one figure out how much energy this "skipping" bullet has?

slight thread drift on...

back in my Air Force days when I actually got to play with stuff like the M249 SAW, the M60 machine gun, and the Ma Deuce, firing at used APC's, tanks, whatever, yeah you could sometimes see a tracer bullet skip like almost straight up into the sky. But we are talking say like a 147 grain pro jo at 3,000 fps, or whatever the M2 shoots...a 600 or 700 something grain bullet at, I think, well over 3,000 fps.

and none of the stuff out there was balanced or hinged to fall backwards. once it was down, nobody was going out there to set it back up.

Ya, I have actually heard them leave the range. Also, we have a couple of very high berms (read 50ft) and I've seen the rounds hit 20-40 feet up when a guy was driving them down. How many ranges have berms that tall?

JT

I'd still be curious as to what velocity these bullets are glancing off of half knocked down poppers.

I'd also be curious what is the point of having a stage designed such that the poppers have to be hit or hammered multiple times to knock them down.

Said another way....maybe this isn't so much a hardware issue....but rather a software issue....change the location or placement of poppers in a stage and that cancels out the urge to fire two or more hits on them.

[West Texas Granny]

However, local waivers should not be denied on general principles if the alternative is losing USPSA venues.

Sorry, but I just don't agree.

Any USPSA member should be able to shoot at any USPSA club without concern for "local rules."

This thread is all about creating a problem and rallying around a problem that doesn't exist in order to satisfy a few people who are quite simply not comfortable with our sport.

We should resist efforts to water down our sport to support these people. This isn't what our sport is about.

If a club doesn't want to play by our rules, the we don't need that club.

I'm not saying that we need to be ruthless, but in life, there are some things worth fighting for.

Competitive equity and the basic methods of our sport, including everything that normally goes on between "beep" and "if you are finished" aren't things on which I'm willing to compromise.

We have rules that allow >32 round courses, mandatory reloads, shooting boxes, and all other sorts of things at Level 1. Nowhere does it suggest that this ought to be carte blanche for local rule making.

There is basically one prominent member of this forum, who happens to be a match director, who takes the opposite position. He thinks that we should accommodate every club's demand and be concerned about the risk of losing one club here or there because they don't want to cooperate with the USPSA's rules. I'm sorry that I just have to disagree with that.

You show me a club board of directors that wants the revenue and marketing and other benefits from holding USPSA matches, but doesn't want to allow reloads with the muzzle pointed over the berm, and I'll show you a club that doesn't need to be hosting USPSA matches.

What's next? No comps, they're too loud. No metric targets, they're too ugly. No steel, ricochets might end up in the next county. No moving targets, too dangerous. No holsters, too scary. No camo, people might think we're a militia. And on and on and on.

Some things are best left alone.

I think you and others are missing the point. If USPSA owns the range then they can have whatever rules they want. If USPSA doesn't own the range then they have to operate within the rules that the range ownership has in place. Remember the USPSA club is a "GUEST" and must operate within the rules of that location. The local USPSA club needs the range not the other way around. Also if a particular range has such a rule it's probably because of some past incident or the range owners are simply trying to avoid additional risk.

[remoandiris]

I'd also be curious what is the point of having a stage designed such that the poppers have to be hit or hammered multiple times to knock them down.

Said another way....maybe this isn't so much a hardware issue....but rather a software issue....change the location or placement of poppers in a stage and that cancels out the urge to fire two or more hits on them.

I think the driving steel issue has to do with the .5 seconds or less gained by forcing the popper down vs. allowing gravity to do the job.

When the difference between first and second is less than 1 second, driving steel could be the difference.

[remoandiris]

I think you and others are missing the point. If USPSA owns the range then they can have whatever rules they want. If USPSA doesn't own the range then they have to operate within the rules that the range ownership has in place. Remember the USPSA club is a "GUEST" and must operate within the rules of that location. The local USPSA club needs the range not the other way around. Also if a particular range has such a rule it's probably because of some past incident or the range owners are simply trying to avoid additional risk.

Wrong again, WTG. Read rule 3.3 in the current edition of the USPSA rulebook.

USPSA may be a guest, but the hosting range accepts USPSA shooting under USPSA rules, not USPSA rule PLUS local rules. USPSA is designed that way so a shooter from anywhere in the US can shoot a USPSA match anywhere in the US and NOT have to learn new rules for every range they compete at.

[Nik Habicht]

1.1.5.1 is the other half of the answer (Level 1 only), and, IMO, the more appropriate rule to cite. No one knows if the rulebook authors thought of using unsafe direction as a means to avoid shooting at a side wall. I believe most people that read 10.4.1 think more of outdoor ranges, especially considering rounds going over berms isn't something that happens indoors. I suppose a backstop could be considered an indoor bullet trap.

As long as you don't make it possible for me to miss a target, that is a legitimate engagement, but then I miss the target 6 inches to the left which has me strike the wall. 10.4.1 does have the exception - Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

I disagree with your interpretation, unless we are just not communicating clearly...that never happens. 1.1.5.1 says I can tell you where you can engage a target at a Level I match. Doesn't matter if the target is visible from multiple locations or not, you are only permitted to engage that target from spot "X". If you engage it from anywhere else and you hit the sidewall, that is an AD according to 10.4.1.

I abhor speaking for Ken, because he has a sharp mind and is capable of speaking for himself.

However....

1.1.5.1 says you can tell me from where I engage a target at a Level I match. That's true. What it doesn't say (and isn't allowed to tell me) is what happens to an errant shot. If you specify I have to engage T1 from Box 1, and my shot goes wide and strikes the wall, there's no rule in USPSA to support a penalty or DQ. It's just a bad shot. Not an AD...just a poorly delivered shot. The second sentence in 10.4 1 saves the competitor.

I smell what you're cooking, but, if the WSB says shoot target "X" from spot "Y" only AND the WSB declares the sidewall an unsafe direction (just like over the berm), yet a competitor does it anyway, I see an argument for DQ based on 10.4.1, regardless of the second sentence in 10.4.1. It is definitely a tricky subject.

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe.

I think target placement would go a long way to determining IF an errant, but legit shot, could hit the sidewall. If it is a legit shot, the target placement probably is to blame. If that is the case, the second part of 10.4.1 would be a definite force.

Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

In more than a decade's experience of shooting IDPA and USPSA matches I can think of exactly one incidence where a competitor came close to firing a round in an unsafe direction -- and it was outdoors, on a less than optimally designed stage. Competitors were only allowed by the WSB to engage steel from the first position on the stage. One of the shooters left a mini-popper standing (he left on it, and simply didn't call the shot), and a few positions later saw it again at about 4 yards distance. As he swung to engage that popper, I stopped him. (I'd rather have had the reshoot, than either the competitor or me hurt....)

Bad stage design -- we now know better.....

In all of my indoor experience, which tends to consist of stage that have designated positions and targets, I've never seen someone not comply. Stage design takes care of the rest, i.e. even a miss still impacts in the bullet trap....

[West Texas Granny]

I think you and others are missing the point. If USPSA owns the range then they can have whatever rules they want. If USPSA doesn't own the range then they have to operate within the rules that the range ownership has in place. Remember the USPSA club is a "GUEST" and must operate within the rules of that location. The local USPSA club needs the range not the other way around. Also if a particular range has such a rule it's probably because of some past incident or the range owners are simply trying to avoid additional risk.

Wrong again, WTG. Read rule 3.3 in the current edition of the USPSA rulebook.

USPSA may be a guest, but the hosting range accepts USPSA shooting under USPSA rules, not USPSA rule PLUS local rules. USPSA is designed that way so a shooter from anywhere in the US can shoot a USPSA match anywhere in the US and NOT have to learn new rules for every range they compete at.

It's like this. If I own the range you have to follow my rules as it's my property. I would be the one on the hook if a USPSA shooter messes up. It would be my business and investment at risk. So if you can't hold your match on my range where I have a rule against your muzzle pointing over the berms then you will have to find somewhere else to hold your match as I'm not risking my business,investment and livelihood for your match. It just wouldn't be worth it. If USPSA can't be flexible to the safety concerns at individual ranges it can very well find itself unwelcome at any range. Then where will you be.

[Sarge]

It's like this. If I own the range you have to follow my rules as it's my property. I would be the one on the hook if a USPSA shooter messes up. It would be my business and investment at risk. So if you can't hold your match on my range where I have a rule against your muzzle pointing over the berms then you will have to find somewhere else to hold your match

WTG I would welcome the chance to shoot ANYWHERE else other than your range!

[Schutzenmeister]

It's like this. If I own the range you have to follow my rules as it's my property. I would be the one on the hook if a USPSA shooter messes up. It would be my business and investment at risk. So if you can't hold your match on my range where I have a rule against your muzzle pointing over the berms then you will have to find somewhere else to hold your match

WTG I would welcome the chance to shoot ANYWHERE else other than your range!

Yeah WTG, me too. Go ahead and "ban" USPSA from your range. But one word of advice along the way ... You'd best ban virtually all LEO's from using your range while you're at it. You're FAR more likely to have them putting rounds over your berm than ANYONE at a USPSA match.

[West Texas Granny]

It's like this. If I own the range you have to follow my rules as it's my property. I would be the one on the hook if a USPSA shooter messes up. It would be my business and investment at risk. So if you can't hold your match on my range where I have a rule against your muzzle pointing over the berms then you will have to find somewhere else to hold your match

WTG I would welcome the chance to shoot ANYWHERE else other than your range!

Well that of course is your choice and of course your loss. I start my match day by arriving early and having breakfast at the club. Nothing like a good breakfast on match day to give you an edge. Then if need be I go down to one of the other pistol ranges for a final function check and a little warm up. Come match time I do my match day stuff. After the match most match participants adjourn back at the club for lunch and a beer. Being a non drinker I settle for water or lemonade. If my back is still holding out I will try and get in some trap, skeet or sporting clays. If the back is causing problems I can go over to the 1,000 yard range for a little precision rifle time from any of the 25 individually installed bench rests. Nice solid platforms with seats provided. The over head cover also helps provide shade during the summer. Of course if I just want to do some plinking well we even have a range set aside just for that. Of course no glass is allowed as a target.

Did I mention our Pro Shop? Did I mention the additional layers of range safety personal on site going from range to range to insure that all are following the safety rules of the range.

At the range I shoot at we are quite fortunate in that the range from firing line to the end of the ranges impact zone is nearly 3 miles. Now that does not excuse unsafe gun handling which shooting over the berm or pointing the muzzle over a berm is. Not everyone is as lucky as we are to have such a large area to shoot in. Others have ranges that are threatened by development if not landlocked already and given the past history of ranges being forced to close due to incidents such as rounds impacting past the berm, development next door or zoning changes it seems only logical that every attempt be made not to endanger what few ranges we have left in those areas that are highly developed.

Your concern is a USPSA rule at a match. My concern is ensuring that there is a place for a match to be held. We do not need additional barriers to this sport that disappearing ranges present. Therefore it's not an unreasonable request that some flexibility in the rules be allowed. If not then you are making it more difficult for those ranges in existence today to be there in the future. USPSA can only exist if there are ranges conveniently located to allow it's members to practice their skills and hold matches. If the ranges start to disappear so will the membership and eventually USPSA. The future is in your hands. Don't blow it by being ignorant to the very threats that ranges face today. Get involved. Protect our ranges and if some flexibility in a USPSA rule would do that make sure it's implemented otherwise you may not have a place to shoot in the future.

[remoandiris]

Then where will you be.

At another range that respects USPSA rules.

If you own a range, you can have all the rules you want. But if you have no fulltime range nazis watching everyone's actions at all times, you can have a first time pistol shooter send one over the berm just as easy as, if not easier than, a USPSA shooter who practices reloads with their finger outside of the trigger guard and an RO watching them run the CoF.

[remoandiris]

Did I mention our Pro Shop? Did I mention the additional layers of range safety personal on site going from range to range to insure that all are following the safety rules of the range.

Restaurant, pro shop, bar, lots of shooting disciplines available PLUS a 3-mile buffer zone.

Is this a privately-owned range, member-owned range, or public range? Are the safety personnel, cooks, and bartenders paid employees or volunteers?

[remoandiris]

Get involved.

And, pray tell, how are you involved? There are numerous forum members who have been USPSA members for decades. Forum members who have built stages month after month for years. Forum members who have been Level I MDs for significantly longer than you have been shooting USPSA.

So, how are YOU involved?