DocMedic Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 So I'm thinking of going open this next year, and while I really want to get a AKDAL, present funds are keeping me away. But what I do have is a Xrail that I used at Ironman last year. I like the Xrail a lot but the biggest down fall is its HEAVY.., also not every 3 gun stage requires you to shoot 22+ of shotgun. So I came up with and idea that I would install the Xrail before stages that require a high shell count and take the Xrail off and just use a Tube magazine extension that holds 12 rounds for stages that don't require as many rounds, to cut down on mass and weight. I thought it was a great idea, well not so much Just checked out the rules of various outlaw matches: Superstition Mystery Mountain 4.4 Participants generally may not reconfigure any firearm during the course of the event. Explicitly prohibited acts include changing caliber, barrel length, shotgun magazine tube length, sighting systems and/or stock style. Rocky Mountain 3gun c. shotgun barrel and magazine tube shall not be changed for the entire match. MGM Ironman 3Gun 4.5 Competitors will not reconfigure any firearm during the course of a match. (i.e. change caliber, barrel length, sighting systems or stock style.) etc, etc.. I was wondering if someone can explain why this rule should still exist for OPEN Div, considering that Saiga, a magazine box fed shotgun is allowed to change Magazine size anytime during a match (drum, 12round mag, 5rnd mag). I can see the reasoning for Tact/Limited/other divs keeping to this rule, but to still have it apply to OPEN seems silly. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to make a change the size of my magazine tube, when the Magazine box fed shotguns have technically been allowed to do all this time. Thoughts? discussions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 So I'm thinking of going open this next year, and while I really want to get a AKDAL, present funds are keeping me away. But what I do have is a Xrail that I used at Ironman last year. I like the Xrail a lot but the biggest down fall is its HEAVY.., also not every 3 gun stage requires you to shoot 22+ of shotgun. So I came up with and idea that I would install the Xrail before stages that require a high shell count and take the Xrail off and just use a Tube magazine extension that holds 12 rounds for stages that don't require as many rounds, to cut down on mass and weight. I thought it was a great idea, well not so much Just checked out the rules of various outlaw matches: Superstition Mystery Mountain 4.4 Participants generally may not reconfigure any firearm during the course of the event. Explicitly prohibited acts include changing caliber, barrel length, shotgun magazine tube length, sighting systems and/or stock style. Rocky Mountain 3gun c. shotgun barrel and magazine tube shall not be changed for the entire match. MGM Ironman 3Gun 4.5 Competitors will not reconfigure any firearm during the course of a match. (i.e. change caliber, barrel length, sighting systems or stock style.) etc, etc.. I was wondering if someone can explain why this rule should still exist for OPEN Div, considering that Saiga, a magazine box fed shotgun is allowed to change Magazine size anytime during a match (drum, 12round mag, 5rnd mag). I can see the reasoning for Tact/Limited/other divs keeping to this rule, but to still have it apply to OPEN seems silly. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to make a change the size of my magazine tube, when the Magazine box fed shotguns have technically been allowed to do all this time. Thoughts? discussions? Doesn't matter to me, I shoot a Saiga in Open and would be happy to watch you rebuild your gun every stage. Open is Open, if you think it will give you an advantage, contact the MD of the matchs you want to shoot and make your case. I'll give you the OK at the Northwest Multigun Challenge right now, done! Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I'm with Doug. As a competitor I would love you to reconfigure your gun each stage. I am a big fan of let Open be Open, which translated means let guys screw themselves with any idea they can come up with. With respect to the rule though I can see some logic. If you want the advantage the Xrail offers (capacity) the rule requires that you also absorb the disadvantage (weight). You may not agree with the fact that a tube fed gun pays a particular penalty for this when a mag fed gun doesn't, however magazines have never been considered as part of the firearm. The analogy would be allowing someone to shoot a 16" upper on a tight technical rifle stage but switch to a 24" gun for the long range targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Once i have an akdal, i'll agree with my good friends craig and doug. Until then, i have my 6 rd tec loaders greased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 As an xrail useer, most of us just load 14 if we need 12 and the weight is not a factor. As to those who prefer the Saiga and others, the weight I carry on the gun fully loaded is the same as the weight you carry on your body and once mine are in the tube loaded, the weight cuts recoil and I never have to worry about a fumbled reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme135 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Does anybody have one of the new firebird guns. I will be ordering one soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 The prohibition on equipment changes exists in IMA, USPSA and other practical shooting rules - it is a vestige of the martial origins of the sport. The theory is that the equipment you have with you when the balloon goes up is all you have to work with. You may agree or disagree with the relevance of this line of thinking today, but that's a different question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The prohibition on equipment changes exists in IMA, USPSA and other practical shooting rules - it is a vestige of the martial origins of the sport. The theory is that the equipment you have with you when the balloon goes up is all you have to work with. You may agree or disagree with the relevance of this line of thinking today, but that's a different question. Under USPSA rules, an X-Rail would be a waste of money as even in Open one is limited to 10 rounds in the mag (be it tube or box.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Once i have an akdal, i'll agree with my good friends craig and doug. Until then, i have my 6 rd tec loaders greased Where do you get 6 round Tec loaders? I'll buy yours once you get that akdal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Open should mean open. If you think having 6 uppers, 4 different mag tubes or a 259mm pistol mag will help let 'er rip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Open should mean open. If you think having 6 uppers, 4 different mag tubes or a 259mm pistol mag will help let 'er rip. Well put. I've always disliked the 170mm mag rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I am not against limiting the magazine length for safety reasons like moving in and around props. But limiting capacity in open seems silly to me. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I am not against limiting the magazine length for safety reasons like moving in and around props. But limiting capacity in open seems silly to me. Pat I'm guessing your talking about a long shotgun tube? I can't see a pistol mag causing a problem getting in and out of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I am not against limiting the magazine length for safety reasons like moving in and around props. But limiting capacity in open seems silly to me. Pat IPSC Shotgun shooters have used ridiculously long shotgun tubes for years without issue. It's just a matter of knowing your gun. Of course IPSC has now changed that so they get to buy all new equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Where do you get 6 round Tec loaders? I'll buy yours once you get that akdal. Geeze, Jesse, you make the darn things! And only 6 rounders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALBY Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Open should mean open. If you think having 6 uppers, 4 different mag tubes or a 259mm pistol mag will help let 'er rip. here! here! **bangs cane on floor** well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Where do you get 6 round Tec loaders? I'll buy yours once you get that akdal. Geeze, Jesse, you make the darn things! And only 6 rounders? My injection molding machine is down. How would I go about making one? Kabar and a a stick and about 3 days of carving? I'd love to see pictures of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Jesse-pm me on these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 My injection molding machine is down. How would I go about making one? Kabar and a a stick and about 3 days of carving? I'd love to see pictures of these. Didn't you once tell me you took engineering??? Some PVC pipe, glue, cutting tools....sheesh. And you want to build a dome over the Whittington Center?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 My injection molding machine is down. How would I go about making one? Kabar and a a stick and about 3 days of carving? I'd love to see pictures of these. Didn't you once tell me you took engineering??? Some PVC pipe, glue, cutting tools....sheesh. And you want to build a dome over the Whittington Center?? I was a reliability engineer. When stuff breaks I complained about it and said I told you so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Jesse-pm me on these Aw, come on kids. Share with the whole class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Jesse-pm me on these Aw, come on kids. Share with the whole class. 4, 5 & 6 rounders...been using them few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 My versions were more labor intensive, but, didn't require multiple loaders for one final one. I cut the loader, drilled out pvc pipe,(I think 1") slightly larger than a 12 shell rim, glued the pipe to the loader pieces with Loctite Superbonder 414, then milled the slot for the ram. A wooden dowel was used during the milling process to keep the tube from collapsing. See, Easy!! I had made them in 6, 7, and 8 round for a buddy of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Rocky Mountain 3gun c. shotgun barrel and magazine tube shall not be changed for the entire match. didnt really matter to me, but i watched a shooter on my squad change his tube length depending on the stage at last years RM3G. screw it, open is open. you want to strap a javelin on the front of a 26" 1100... go for it. makes for great pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 My versions were more labor intensive, but, didn't require I had made them in 6, 7, and 8 round for a buddy of mine. Hey buddy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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