justaute Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 A descent article in the Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203935604577066650781670254.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Some people will always be ignorant and prejudice -- willfully or not -- irrespective of which side of the "gun-fence" they choose to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I see two good solutions to that - both coming from other sports. A) Pay the set up crew and MD, ROs, etc as necessary, if the matches become larger I think this sport works better as an activity at a private club, than on a public range - I realize this makes it more difficult to get things going, but I think it helps the quality of the match, and the life of the people involved in putting them on, considerably. Good luck gettng a private range to hire people to do that. I doubt a private club will want the hassle of employees. It looks very simple from the outside, but take a staffing class and you'll learn reality is much different. Contracting it out would be less of a hassle, but then the people work for the contractor, not the club...and that has it's own problems. Add to it the extra cost and match fees will go up, possibly pricing it out of range. No pun intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 The only thing more boring than watching shooting is watching golf. Watching tennis is more boring than watching shooting. Tennis is less boring than watching golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 The only thing more boring than watching shooting is watching golf. Watching tennis is more boring than watching shooting. Tennis is less boring than watching golf. You are NUTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Watching tennis is more boring than watching shooting. Tennis is less boring than watching golf. You are NUTS ROFLMAO watching that vid!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadslinger275 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) 1. As far as USPSA match fees to the main office is concerned I think some simple math is in order. My local club is one of the most active in WA state, possibly in Area 1 we average about 75 shooters at our monthly match 8 months out of the year and about 55 shooters the other 4 months out of the year. Some generous math to follow. 75 shooters X 12 matches a year = 900 shooters a year 900 shooters X $3 ($1.50 classifier and $1.50 activity fee) = $2700 a year Let's say that there are 10 clubs in WA state (generous figure) that are as active as my home club that's $27,000 a year. $27,000 X 50 states (another generous figure I'm sure)= $1,350,000 a year Now after all the expenses of sending out front sight magazine, running nationals, staff and office expenses, just to name a few we want to run multiple adds on prime time television on even a cable network. I realize I didn't take into account SC (I don't think it is popular enough yet for significant revenue) and membership dues (Life, Five year, Three year, and Annual memberships... I'm a simple man, I have no idea how to figure that even close to accurately without hard numbers). Even if we more than doubled the budget that USPSA "might" receive from classifier and activity fees there is no way USPSA has the budget to advertise nationally like PBR or WSOP. We don't play in a rich man's sport and we never will. This is a "volunteer sport" which is it's main strength. 2. IDPA vs USPSA: this is a dumb debate, but I'm bored so I'll jump in. Two completely different disciplines with two different objectives. I prefer USPSA because I easily get irritated hearing people talk about "cover" and "tactical this and tactical that" that have never been in gun fight. USPSA is a sport plain and simple. Every local IDPA match I have been to is like a "backwoods redneck gun show meets wannabe Tae Kwon Do McDojo for every fat guy that got picked on high school". It's not my scene and I have rarely seen "talented" shooters shoot at local IDPA matches. Maybe I've just had bad experiences with IDPA, but fat guys wearing Camelbacks and sweet shooting vests talking tactics over coffee between stages just isn't my thing. There are obviously a lot of extremely talented shooters that compete in IDPA on the National level. I just don't prefer the local IDPA scene. Edited December 13, 2011 by leadslinger275 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 We've had the discussion locally on how to get more shooters to come to matches. We do OK around here, 50-60 shooters per match, weather and wives permitting. Most of our ranges will only have 5-6 bays to use anyway. I asked the folks who were trying to get more shooters to come out, "Where you gonna put them? Are we ready for 80 shooters per match? Are we going to be there 3 hours longer for the same amount of shooting?" I'm all for growing the sport as long as I'm not put out any ^ This observation is vital !! We need to be doing more to develop (and maintain) ranges for our sport. If we could influence the state legislatures to pass "range protection acts" to protect ranges from suburban encroachment(complaints about the noise) and eminent domain that would be AWESOME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 We've had the discussion locally on how to get more shooters to come to matches. We do OK around here, 50-60 shooters per match, weather and wives permitting. Most of our ranges will only have 5-6 bays to use anyway. I asked the folks who were trying to get more shooters to come out, "Where you gonna put them? Are we ready for 80 shooters per match? Are we going to be there 3 hours longer for the same amount of shooting?" I'm all for growing the sport as long as I'm not put out any ^ This observation is vital !! We need to be doing more to develop (and maintain) ranges for our sport. If we could influence the state legislatures to pass "range protection acts" to protect ranges from suburban encroachment(complaints about the noise) and eminent domain that would be AWESOME! And actually there you need to look to............ .......New Jersey. One of the few good things Governor Florio left the state with was a robust range protection law. Of course we also got an assault weapons/mag capacity ban at the same time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Without a significant budget its hard to advertise anywhere that reaches a large # of people. One way to get more participants would be to hold a match thats oriented towards beginners ...one where new people wouldn't feel like they were competing against guys that have been doing this for quite a while. Another would be to possibly get together with local scout troops and get more young people introduced to the sport...get teenagers into this sport and their parents and siblings will follow. Try working with a local P.A.L. (Police Athletic League ) again to get young people into the sport. As someone stated earlier in this topic if you ask people what IPSC or USPSA stand for and even gave them a hint that it has to do with a shooting sport ....most people out there have NO idea this exists. Even those that watch shows like Top Shot have no idea about this sport. If someone can get together with the staff of Top Shot there might be a way to get "free" advertising for USPSA. Get one of the USPSA 's top shots into the show and every chance he gets to talk about shooting he mentions USPSA. Local scouting troops might be approachable about having them come to the range and watch a match. For older scouts they might be of age to actually participate. Scouts are always looking for ways to earn their badges and serving as a volunteer to paste and repair targets might be a way for them to earn a couple. Hold a match that benefits someone local thats fighting a disease...X # of $ from match entry fees and t-shirts sold go toward the John Smith cancer fund and then contact your local TV stations to let them know about the fundraising event. Call it "The John Smith Shoots Down Cancer Match" The local news here would advertise an event like that. Get the club members to hand out flyers about matches ...post them at the local police station, in sporting goods stores, in gun shops... I know these efforts are "small time" but they're what can be done with little or no $ for TV advertising and some volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Without a significant budget its hard to advertise anywhere that reaches a large # of people. I'd offer two random thoughts: 1) we're a "niche" sport. Even if we reached everyone who might be interested in us, we're not going to grow to 100,000 members. Why? IMHO, because while there are a lot of people who shoot for "fun", there aren't a lot of people who are serious enough to put in the time/effort/money to get "good" at our game, and we aren't a comfortable "pastime" for the average guy. Don't know how many times I've seen people come out (interested), watch a match, try it, leave and never come back... because they felt intimidated and out of place. If we can solve that - withOUT diluting the sport - we'll be onto something. But not holding my breath. 2) we may never be able to run ads on TV, but, hell, we've got a "dealer network" of something like 300 clubs and 10,000 active participants. Seems like if we got all of them to "do something", word would get around much better than it does. The problem is that USPSA mostly "hopes" that members, clubs and shops will tell people about the game. What I think USPSA should do is "reward" people for doing that. Maybe slots to the Nationals. Maybe discounts on things that clubs need (targets, steel, tape, whatever). Maybe cash rewards (every new member that signs up, the club gets $5 of the first-year membership fee). Don't know, but... if USPSA were able to develop a way to "reward" shooters and clubs for doing things that need doing, and the "rewards" were things that the club valued (e.g., would have spent money on).... it seems like a good path to be on. $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I think we need to gather more data in order to find out what works in attracting new members. One way of doing that is via statistics from the USPSA.org web-site; For example, on my web-site stats I can see how people are getting to my site, this is shown as the REFERRER. An example; If I were to post a link to my web-site on BE.com then it would show the forum entry where people clicked on my stats. This way I can find out how people are getting to my site, it can also show the Google search that was used to provide a link to my site. I can then add additional words to the Meta tags for my pages to show up in more search results. Getting people onto the USPSA.org web-site is a good first step. Once there we need to add a function/cookie setting that detects new users and points them towards a simpler splash screen which shows the club-finder, rules, division descriptions, how to join, videos, photos etc.. Another thing that could work is submitting articles about practical shooting to non-shooting magazines. As long as there is a 'hook' into something that the magazine normally covers then they would be more open to accepting that type of article. An example would be the work that some USPSA shooters do for the movie industry, I think Taran Butler has done a lot of work in this area; An article about how actors are trained in using guns for the movies along with some photos from USPSA matches to show the trainers in action could produce some interest. The same would also apply to magazines targeted to law-enforcement or to women's magazines (the latter have an ENORMOUS readership).... find a 'hook' for the article and its possible to introduce a few hundred thousand readers to our sport. How many that would bring in is another matter, but knowledge of what we do is a good first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 How about making the first year of membership to USPSA free? I considered not renewing my membership before I started shooting out of town matches. I am sure that the large majority of our members, even our active members, do not shoot anything other than a monthly club match. They don't have a lot of incentive to be members. Maybe if they became members and experienced Level 2 and above matches they would be as hooked as some of us are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 How about making the first year of membership to USPSA free? I considered not renewing my membership before I started shooting out of town matches. I am sure that the large majority of our members, even our active members, do not shoot anything other than a monthly club match. They don't have a lot of incentive to be members. Maybe if they became members and experienced Level 2 and above matches they would be as hooked as some of us are. From USPSA's perspective, that is the big problem facing the org (JMHO). shooters can shoot club matches without being members, and the vast majority of USPSA members only shoot local/club matches. So... what could USPSA offer those people that makes membership "worth paying for"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Classification and Front Sight Seems to be enough for the club shooters I see in Florida. Almost all are USPSA members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawneeboy87 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) I'm thinking a USPSA video game... JJ Racaza on the cover...you can play as Todd Jarrett, Max Michel, or Dave Sevigny. You can shoot 3-gun (as Jerry Miculek or Dan Horner) or pistol and even create your own shooter and work your way through the ranks and all the major and local matches. Also, build your own guns and order all the parts from all the different shops. You can build your dream open gun for the price of the game. Just think....no more dry firing!! Just play on your Wii or XBox Kinect and you'll get your practice Edited December 13, 2011 by Shawneeboy87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm thinking a USPSA video game... JJ Racaza on the cover...you can play as Todd Jarrett, Max Michel, or Dave Sevigny. You can shoot 3-gun (as Jerry Miculek or Dan Horner) or pistol and even create your own shooter and work your way through the ranks and all the major and local matches. Also, build your own guns and order all the parts from all the different shops. You can build your dream open gun for the price of the game. Just think....no more dry firing!! Just play on your Wii or XBox Kinect and you'll get your practice And then get the cheat codes and go from C Class to GM!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawneeboy87 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm thinking a USPSA video game... JJ Racaza on the cover...you can play as Todd Jarrett, Max Michel, or Dave Sevigny. You can shoot 3-gun (as Jerry Miculek or Dan Horner) or pistol and even create your own shooter and work your way through the ranks and all the major and local matches. Also, build your own guns and order all the parts from all the different shops. You can build your dream open gun for the price of the game. Just think....no more dry firing!! Just play on your Wii or XBox Kinect and you'll get your practice And then get the cheat codes and go from C Class to GM!! I can see it now, getting the cheat code to unlock Brian Enos... I just like the idea of getting all the guns I've ever wanted without having to worry about price or laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 How about making the first year of membership to USPSA free? I considered not renewing my membership before I started shooting out of town matches. I am sure that the large majority of our members, even our active members, do not shoot anything other than a monthly club match. They don't have a lot of incentive to be members. Maybe if they became members and experienced Level 2 and above matches they would be as hooked as some of us are. From USPSA's perspective, that is the big problem facing the org (JMHO). shooters can shoot club matches without being members, and the vast majority of USPSA members only shoot local/club matches. So... what could USPSA offer those people that makes membership "worth paying for"? Gee I just don't get it. I don't need an incentive to be a USPSA member. I get a magazine once in awhile to read about all the big names in the sport and stay abreast of current issues regarding the sport. I am a somewhat serious shooter. I don't shoot as many majors as I would like but I still consider myself a student of the game and try to shoot the good local matches regularly. I liken it(once again) to golf. By joining USGA you get a handicap and keep track of how your game is faring over time. Sure, tons of weekend golfers could care less about a handicap but all the serious golfers I was involved with almost saw being a member of USGA a requirement to be a serious golfer. Same thing with this game. By being a member you support the growth of the organization and therefore the growth of the sport which is what this whole thread is about. It's not always about what the organization can do for you, but rather what you can do for the organization. Like I said before, I don't think we need every new CCW holder and gun owner shooting matches just so we can say we are promoting growth in the sport. Let those who are serious about getting involved find it on their own. That will lead to less issues down the road and promote greater camaraderie among those of us who want to take the sport more seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 How about making the first year of membership to USPSA free? I considered not renewing my membership before I started shooting out of town matches. I am sure that the large majority of our members, even our active members, do not shoot anything other than a monthly club match. They don't have a lot of incentive to be members. Maybe if they became members and experienced Level 2 and above matches they would be as hooked as some of us are. Maybe. I'm not sure the organization benefits from free membership -- and there are costs to service the member..... In the Mid-Atlantic Section we've had success from letting folks join USPSA at a match, and then shooting that match for free. It doesn't cost USPSA anything, and the club/section benefit from having someone take a little more of a buy-in step into the program.... The new member benefits, if he's not a member of the local range already, or when he shoots somewhere other than his home club, by the $5 discount on match entries for USPSA members..... (Mid-Atlantic Section Fee Structure: Non-USPSA member $25, USPSA member $20 -- the hosting range may discount their members by $5 from the USPSA member rate; the section clubs pay prize money after the match) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 So... what could USPSA offer those people that makes membership "worth paying for"? We need to apply that question to clubs as well...and Steel Challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Jim Norman wrote: SC? There are what 7 courses of fire? There are or have been other stage designs, but over the past few years at Piru for the big world shoot, there are 8, with a few side stages/matches interspersed. Are there classifications?there is a ranking system, for now....I will pontificate some more on that in a minute. Is there a Classification database to maintain?like I said, for now, just a ranking system In my opinion, what would or could be the very death knell for SC is if USPSA tries to implement its classification system onto SC. I think there is a core of very dedicated SC shooters who are still incensed about having IDPA categories recognized as well. Forcing a USPSA like classification system onto SC, I think, will make a bunch of shooters jump ship. As far as the actual stage designs being copyrighted or trademark, I have NO idea, but, hey, we're all a bunch of gamers and there are easiest enough ways to get around that, that wouldn't land an "outlaw" MD in legal hot water with USPSA's/SC's lawyers. You wanna know who helped us out with our steel? The NRA did. They gave us a grant of $1,500 for "Scholastic Steel Challenge". If anybody should be seeing money kicked back to them for us holding matches, it should be the NRA. I can't say too much, but I assure you that the SC, and a way to improve it, is a hot topic of discussion at the BOD level. I voted for the purchase, although with hesitation. I saw it as a viable way to get younger shooters, and women started in the shooting sports without the intimidation that a normall USPSA match can impose on a brand new shooter. It also gives the older shooter a place to continue shooting without the physical aspect that USPSA requires. Additionally it has more photo appeal because of the non-humanoid aspect of the steel. While I want to maintain our USPSA roots, it wouldn't hurt to have another associated sport that only uses steel of various shapes and sizes. I see SC as two separate areas. First is the traditional SC match. I think that should maintain its traditional flavor and be ran on a heads up status. However, I can see a classification system for matches below the main SC match. Our classification system works fairly well in USPSA and I can't see any real reason that it can't work in SC. Additionally I think we need some form of parallel match structure to our State/Sectional and Area matches. I also think those people who would be willing to put on these matches should be allowed some flexibility in the stages they offer. For instance, a State/Sectional match would be required to run 25 percent of the standard SC stages, somewhat like classifiers are now. They could then improvise on the remaining 75 percent of the stages. An Area match would be required to run 50 percent of the standard SC stages and be able to improvise on the remaining 50 percent. By using the standard SC stages at each match you would be able to keep a steady stream of SC stage data coming in to HQ for classification purposes. Now I know there would be a lot of points to fine tune, but these can be talking points to try to get something moving. Gary Edited December 14, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 How about making the first year of membership to USPSA free? I considered not renewing my membership before I started shooting out of town matches. I am sure that the large majority of our members, even our active members, do not shoot anything other than a monthly club match. They don't have a lot of incentive to be members. Maybe if they became members and experienced Level 2 and above matches they would be as hooked as some of us are. Maybe. I'm not sure the organization benefits from free membership -- and there are costs to service the member..... My point is that once they experience membership they might be more inclined to renew a membership that they have where they might not be inclined to make that original membership payment. I have found other benefits that are hardly mentioned. The best benefit of USPSA membership is recognition as a shooter when I travel with work and attend local club matches. It definitely makes being away from home much easier. Fortunately, few folks have to travel to make a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 How about making the first year of membership to USPSA free? I considered not renewing my membership before I started shooting out of town matches. I am sure that the large majority of our members, even our active members, do not shoot anything other than a monthly club match. They don't have a lot of incentive to be members. Maybe if they became members and experienced Level 2 and above matches they would be as hooked as some of us are. Maybe. I'm not sure the organization benefits from free membership -- and there are costs to service the member..... My point is that once they experience membership they might be more inclined to renew a membership that they have where they might not be inclined to make that original membership payment. I have found other benefits that are hardly mentioned. The best benefit of USPSA membership is recognition as a shooter when I travel with work and attend local club matches. It definitely makes being away from home much easier. Fortunately, few folks have to travel to make a living. I totally disagree. I think people tend to see things that are free as worthless. And while there would probably be a spike in new members with such a program, I can see most of those people balking a year later when their membership renewal comes due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 To go mainstream i think sponsorship would be the key element! You would need companies like RedBull, Monster, Nike, Oakley, Activision etc. to get involved in this sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) So tell me again the reason USPSA NEEDS to become mainstream? Many of you WANT us to be mainstream, but do we NEED to be? Edited December 14, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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