Making uspsa mainstream

[Chills1994]

I think Michael Bane would be another good person to consult with WRT better marketing USPSA.

If Top Shot or 3 Gun Nation wraps without one single solitary USPSA commercial, then USPSA will have really missed the boat.

[ima45dv8]

You missed my point... Sorry ... I should have clarified that. If the SC can't be self-supporting through membership fees/dues and per capita taxes, and it continues to be a drain on USPSA's finances, somebody is going to have to drastically change that business model.

So you think SC should be self-supporting based solely on membership fees/dues. Think again. Membership isn't required. Members aren't required to join SC before shooting a match like some other venues. Where else do you suggest the money come from?

Frankly, I've grown tired of your "per-capita tax" description. It's an activity fee. A fee is charged per participant. It's not a tax.

The organization doesn't run for free. If you can't get your head around the fact that this takes some amount of money to run and it doesn't materialize out of thin air, why do you continue to subject yourself to it?

You say it's a drain on USPSA's finances. I'd like to know what facts you have to support that claim.

[shred]

It's an activity fee. A fee is charged per participant. It's not a tax.

Our USPSA club had been running Steel Challenge matches for at least a dozen years just fine on our own, then USPSA coming along and saying "we own it now, you have to pay us for every shooter" was a little tough to take.

So, the club didn't bother to affiliate and USPSA gets zip. Who wins then?

[ima45dv8]

It's an activity fee. A fee is charged per participant. It's not a tax.

Our USPSA club had been running Steel Challenge matches for at least a dozen years just fine on our own, then USPSA coming along and saying "we own it now, you have to pay us for every shooter" was a little tough to take.

So, the club didn't bother to affiliate and USPSA gets zip. Who wins then?

What club is that?

Are you advertising it as a Steel Challenge match?

If so, you already know where I'm heading. If not, what do you call it?

[West Texas Granny]

It's an activity fee. A fee is charged per participant. It's not a tax.

Our USPSA club had been running Steel Challenge matches for at least a dozen years just fine on our own, then USPSA coming along and saying "we own it now, you have to pay us for every shooter" was a little tough to take.

So, the club didn't bother to affiliate and USPSA gets zip. Who wins then?

What club is that?

Are you advertising it as a Steel Challenge match?

If so, you already know where I'm heading. If not, what do you call it?

A good lawyer can make USPSA pay up over this.

[West Texas Granny]

We are surrounded by those who frankly do not like our sport. That's a given. The comments about not growing are self defeating. Yes growing will cause problems but it's the only way to broaden our base which will make it harder for those wishing to shut us down. So grow we must.

I would suggest using the softball model by developing teams from local businesses who can also sponsor matches. This should help with the money flow and make it harder for the anti-gun side to attack and shut down ranges.

I would like to suggest that others copy the model if you haven't already that has developed naturally at my local range. What happened was the development of a match that introduced new people to competitive shooting. It is a one stage match that has been ongoing for over 20 years where the participants would shoot the stage depending on weather 2 or 3 times. Normal cardboard targets,mini poppers, Texas Star,movement and other target configurations you would find in a USPSA/IPSC match are used. The matches are fun but challenging. The results are that those new to competitive shooting have an avenue to test out the sport without the stress of match day.

I would suggest that each club set up a Facebook page for posting pics and video from the matches. YouTube is also a good tool.

I would suggest some program that will sponsor the growth of the RO's that are needed for the growth of the sport.

I would suggest some basic PR info for each club.

More effort is needed to attract women to the sport.

Is it possible to work with Conceal Carry instructors and through them suggest USPSA as a way to maintain ones skills.

[twodownzero]

I kind of like things the way they are. I remember my golfing days when TW hit the tour. Overnight every Tom Dick and Harry suddenly became a golfer! Tee times were harder to get, Rounds ballooned to 5+ hours, etc...

If our sport suddenly became the hot ticket there is no way the limited facilities available could handle the sudden influx of participants. There would be problems out the a$$.

I say, let's just keep it under the radar and let those that want to get in to the sport find it on their own. Those are the ones you really want involved anyway.

Not that I disagree with anything said here, but more USPSA members means more shooters, and in the long run, more clubs, more matches within reasonable driving distance, etc. I'm not against the expansion at all. In fact, our club numbers are just now back to where they were nearly 20 years ago.

With proper leadership, the USPSA can, and will, grow. And it needs to in order to accommodate the fact that my generation is finally taking up shooting as a sport instead of scoffing at shooters as a bunch of hillbillies.

[Sarge]

We are surrounded by those who frankly do not like our sport. That's a given. The comments about not growing are self defeating. Yes growing will cause problems but it's the only way to broaden our base which will make it harder for those wishing to shut us down. So grow we must.

I would suggest using the softball model by developing teams from local businesses who can also sponsor matches. This should help with the money flow and make it harder for the anti-gun side to attack and shut down ranges.

I just don't see either of these to be a threat. At least not around here. We have more than enough shooters at our matches. My particular club has absolutely no problem with money flow either. As a matter of fact, except for club dues, most clubs around here bring in the bulk of their money from USPSA matches. By a pretty wide margin, I might add. As far as the anti gunners I think we are about as well covered as we can be due to the vast majority of shooters being NRA members. As far as comments about not growing the sport being self defeating. You may have missed the point. I hope the sport grows. But I want it to grow at a pace that we can all keep up with. I want there to be plenty of clubs/ranges around to handle all the shooters without turning a 4 stage match into an all day affair. I want the ranks to grow but I want them to grow full of shooters who understand what it takes to be a productive member. I don't mind new shooters showing up to shoot a match. As a matter of fact I love it. But they need to know the rules, have the needed gear, understand that helping with the operation of the match is all on them/us, i.e set up and tear down. Being new is no excuse for shooting your last stage and being in your car on the way out the gate before the match is even over. I see that a lot with new shooters.

I would like to suggest that others copy the model if you haven't already that has developed naturally at my local range. What happened was the development of a match that introduced new people to competitive shooting. It is a one stage match that has been ongoing for over 20 years where the participants would shoot the stage depending on weather 2 or 3 times. Normal cardboard targets,mini poppers, Texas Star,movement and other target configurations you would find in a USPSA/IPSC match are used. The matches are fun but challenging. The results are that those new to competitive shooting have an avenue to test out the sport without the stress of match day.

This part of what your range does sounds pretty good. But the other things that have been mentioned take all of that away. i.e the local range rules that have been discussed such as cars being safe areas and loading up in safe areas, etc. Those are huge problems that should not be happening during anything wearing the name USPSA. Sorry, but there just is no way around that.

I would suggest that each club set up a Facebook page for posting pics and video from the matches. YouTube is also a good tool.

I would suggest some program that will sponsor the growth of the RO's that are needed for the growth of the sport. My club will pay for a member to go to RO class. But we also don't have dedicated range officers. The club stays out of the operations of the different disciplines. We shoot USPSA, cowboy, pins,bullseye etc and nearly every type of rifle match known to man out to 600 yards. None of these matches have any local rules being imposed upon them because the club knows they already have their own rules which have proven to be safe and effective.

I would suggest some basic PR info for each club. My club tends to shy away from too much PR. If a person wants to shoot they will find a place and a way to do so. Kind of my thoughts on shooters who want to shoot USPSA. If they want to check it out they will figure out how to do so.

More effort is needed to attract women to the sport. I don't see a difference personally. A shooter is a shooter. If a shooter wants to shoot with us bad enough they will.

Is it possible to work with Conceal Carry instructors and through them suggest USPSA as a way to maintain ones skills. In my humble opinion USPSA is exactly the WRONG game to play to hone defensive skills. CCW and USPSA are like oil and water. IDPA on the other hand is geared towards CCW.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kevin Sanders

[twodownzero]

I don't think that seeing the sights and pulling the trigger smoothly are learned better in IDPA than in USPSA.

In fact, the reason I stopped shooting IDPA and came to this sport is because more shooting == better skills.

The only main point of disagreement I have with you is that we absolutely MUST grow our organization and interest in our sport.

The political winds didn't change from a few SCOTUS decisions and some lobbying. They changed because more and more people who were ignorant of guns and their uses hit the range and learned about using guns safely for all sorts of sporting purposes beyond just hunting and home protection.

USPSA is the tip of the spear for handgun sports. We will either make it our business to expand and grow, or we will cease to exist when another sport decides to do our work for us.

[Steve L]

I think the problem is monkey see money do, yet monkey don't know what he's doing. When Sopranos came out people wanted to be like Tony. When Fast and Furious came out people bought spoilers for their cars. When someone sees a USPSA open gun, race holster, sub second draw to first shot then what? That is one of my concerns.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Nik Habicht

[Sarge]

I don't think that seeing the sights and pulling the trigger smoothly are learned better in IDPA than in USPSA.

In fact, the reason I stopped shooting IDPA and came to this sport is because more shooting == better skills.

The only main point of disagreement I have with you is that we absolutely MUST grow our organization and interest in our sport.

The political winds didn't change from a few SCOTUS decisions and some lobbying. They changed because more and more people who were ignorant of guns and their uses hit the range and learned about using guns safely for all sorts of sporting purposes beyond just hunting and home protection.

USPSA is the tip of the spear for handgun sports. We will either make it our business to expand and grow, or we will cease to exist when another sport decides to do our work for us.

TDZ While I agree with getting more trigger time in USPSA vs IDPA I don't see myself wading into a group of 10 or 15 bad guys with a pistol when there is a way to get the hell out of there or to take cover.

[twodownzero]

I don't think that seeing the sights and pulling the trigger smoothly are learned better in IDPA than in USPSA.

In fact, the reason I stopped shooting IDPA and came to this sport is because more shooting == better skills.

The only main point of disagreement I have with you is that we absolutely MUST grow our organization and interest in our sport.

The political winds didn't change from a few SCOTUS decisions and some lobbying. They changed because more and more people who were ignorant of guns and their uses hit the range and learned about using guns safely for all sorts of sporting purposes beyond just hunting and home protection.

USPSA is the tip of the spear for handgun sports. We will either make it our business to expand and grow, or we will cease to exist when another sport decides to do our work for us.

TDZ While I agree with getting more trigger time in USPSA vs IDPA I don't see myself wading into a group of 10 or 15 bad guys with a pistol when there is a way to get the hell out of there or to take cover.

But if you have to shoot, you'll want to make every shot count, and that's the point. That's why this game is called "practical shooting" and not "practical tactics."

The skill of shooting is independent of other tactical considerations. USPSA teaches shooting--a form of marksmanship--and that's what we need to focus on.

[rgkeller]

IMO, USPSA/IPSC is a TEST of shooting and other ancillary skills.

IMO, it should NOT be an entry level shooting venue.

On a macro level, the USPSA officers and staff can be most useful concentrating on more RANGES hosting USPSA matches. The local clubs will grow because of the efforts of local members of those clubs. The National Organization has little impact on actual shooter recruitment.

[Leftylivesmatter]

Until it gets popular, why not get behind 3-Gun Nation in the meantime?

http://3gunnation.com/episodes/ozark_3-gun_part_i

Agreed. It is already mainstream.

[Chills1994]

You missed my point... Sorry ... I should have clarified that. If the SC can't be self-supporting through membership fees/dues and per capita taxes, and it continues to be a drain on USPSA's finances, somebody is going to have to drastically change that business model.

So you think SC should be self-supporting based solely on membership fees/dues. Think again. Membership isn't required. Members aren't required to join SC before shooting a match like some other venues. Where else do you suggest the money come from?

Frankly, I've grown tired of your "per-capita tax" description. It's an activity fee. A fee is charged per participant. It's not a tax.

The organization doesn't run for free. If you can't get your head around the fact that this takes some amount of money to run and it doesn't materialize out of thin air, why do you continue to subject yourself to it?

You say it's a drain on USPSA's finances. I'd like to know what facts you have to support that claim.

I never did come right out initially and say that the SC was a drain on USPSA's finances, initially. Somebody else first wrote that, take your angst and direct it at that person.

Me? My angst? Yeah, you're dang skippy my panties are bunched over USPSA buying the SC in the first place:

A. without the USPSA membership being allowed to vote on it

B. no prior input asked for or allowed to be submitted to HQ via the Area Directors

and lastly, the kicker for me

C. we are so many odd years removed from when the actual purchase occurred and us some 20,000 USPSA members still have no idea what HQ paid for it.

Steel targets are freakin' expensive. Does USPSA/SC HQ help us buy a club's steel? Nope, in turn all I get is USPSA/SC wanting a buck fifty from every shooter, EVERY SHOOTER, not just SC member for shooting a match.

As far as evidence goes, USPSA is a non-profit and as such has to make its tax returns open to the public. I have the hard copies of the IRS Form 990's from the past several years sitting right here in front of me.

All of the above is written with this song playing in the background:

[Chills1994]

As the story was relayed to me by the then Missouri Section coordinator who was also like the acting match director for a local twice monthly "speed plates" match....

when USPSA bought SC, Michael Voigt supposedly called this Section Coordinator and asked him point blank if he would consider affiliating his steel club with the SC, the Section Coordinator's answer wasn't just a "no", but a "HELL NO!"

Just going over the "speed plates" results for that club so far this year, they have run 390 shooters through. At a buck fifty each, that's $585 that USPSA/SC HQ lost out on.

I can't blame the local club one bit for not affiliating.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Chills1994

[Jim Norman]

With USPSA the Activity Fees go towards maintaining the Classification Database and the Nationals, NROI and the rules. All this costs money and takes time.

SC? There are what 7 courses of fire? Are there classifications? Is there a Classification database to maintain? I will assume that there is a set of rules somewhere. Since there isn't much that can be gamed like in USPSA and there is no movement sans one stage, how much rule review is there?

If you run Steel Challenge Stages they are owned by USPSA and SC so to use them you have to pay. So either pay up and use them or run a very similar match and don't pay them, but then your shooters won't have the practice on the real stages should they go to a SC match where there is real money and prizes.

I don't think USPSA/SC can keep a club from running a steel match with 5 plates and scoring it best 4 runs, that has existed out in the market for years. You can't call it SC and you can't use their scoring program.

One thing, just like USPSA, You have a set of rules and the matches are run in a certain manner. You travel to a match, you know what to expect. You travel to other matches, you have no idea what to look for or look out for. Remember in USPSA you pay your $3 per shooter regardless of if they are a member. Build the costs into your match fee same as in USPSA.

As to the purchase, that is a different story, one I am not privy to. I and I am sure many of the members of USPSA want to know what we really got out of it?

So what if someone else put up the money to buy it. Would they ban USPSA members from shooting SC? Not likely. Are we making any money, real money of this? What is our ROI? If we paid a million dollars for this match what tangible assets did we get? Are all the dedicated SC shooters now going to join USPSA? Did they have to join SC before USPSA purchased it? Why should they join now? Why should we as USPSA members join SC? Maybe we should have a single membership for both and the activity fees get credited to which ever venue you participated in?

I could continue, but to what end? The deal is done. What wee can do is demand that we are informed and if the facts warrant it, demand that we divest ourselves of the 'asset' OR conversely we find that it is a cash cow, we do our best to grow it and milk it.

One thing SC does is it gets people shooting. Some will cross over to USPSA, many won't. We have found that it is a good place for new shooters to get used to drawing and shooting fast at real targets. Use it for what it is worth.

[Chills1994]

Jim Norman wrote:

SC? There are what 7 courses of fire? There are or have been other stage designs, but over the past few years at Piru for the big world shoot, there are 8, with a few side stages/matches interspersed. Are there classifications?there is a ranking system, for now....I will pontificate some more on that in a minute. Is there a Classification database to maintain?like I said, for now, just a ranking system

In my opinion, what would or could be the very death knell for SC is if USPSA tries to implement its classification system onto SC. I think there is a core of very dedicated SC shooters who are still incensed about having IDPA categories recognized as well.

Forcing a USPSA like classification system onto SC, I think, will make a bunch of shooters jump ship.

As far as the actual stage designs being copyrighted or trademark, I have NO idea, but, hey, we're all a bunch of gamers and there are easiest enough ways to get around that, that wouldn't land an "outlaw" MD in legal hot water with USPSA's/SC's lawyers.

You wanna know who helped us out with our steel?

The NRA did. They gave us a grant of $1,500 for "Scholastic Steel Challenge". If anybody should be seeing money kicked back to them for us holding matches, it should be the NRA.

[Singlestack]

That will do it for the USPSA politics.

[BritinUSA]

Sorry for the slight thread drift here; My own attempts to grow USPSA participation (particularly amongst women) has just had an upgrade... I've been working on a complete rewrite of my web-site... I still have a couple of issues to resolve (the videos don't have a 'CLOSE' icon in the top right corner but the rest seems to be working albeit a bit slowly.

If you have some time and want to check it out, its www.britinusa.net

I'll be interested if someone who has an iPad can view the site/videos without any issues, I moved to a variable width setup which should allow it to be viewable on anything... allegedly.

[kevinj308]

It's working on my ipad2. I'm playing a video from the 2011 Nationals and it looks great. When the video opens on the screen it looks a little funny. A large black background and the video is in the middle. But in full screen it's awesome.

Nice job

Kevin

ETA I'm looking at the match reports from the 2011 Nats. I like the way it opens on the Ipad better than my pc actually. The pc gives me a small window that I have to scroll down through. It's only about a third of the screen. The Ipad is full screen, all the reports laid out vertically. I get 3 or 4 on the screen at a time. Really nice.

Edited November 22, 2011 by kevinj308

[twodownzero]

The NRA did. They gave us a grant of $1,500 for "Scholastic Steel Challenge". If anybody should be seeing money kicked back to them for us holding matches, it should be the NRA.

I wish I knew about SSC when I was the President of the shooting club at the University of Illinois. We could have REALLY used the money. $1500 would have bought a year's worth of ammo for my guys.

[Chills1994]

the grant was originally written just for the steel targets. we would have liked the whole $4,000 to buy more steel, but I think the higher highers at the NRA had so many requests this year that everybody's grants got reduced and we just got $1,500.

the Scholastic Steel Challenge has worked out its own ammunition deals with Winchester. the SSC has also worked out something with S&W and Glock for 9mm pistols.

[two shoes]

... Aren't they usually on ESPN 8 (The Ocho) or something?

Reading throught the thread and this made me laugh out loud... and I could only think "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball..."

[Red Ryder]

I kind of like things the way they are. I remember my golfing days when TW hit the tour. Overnight every Tom Dick and Harry suddenly became a golfer! Tee times were harder to get, Rounds ballooned to 5+ hours, etc...

If our sport suddenly became the hot ticket there is no way the limited facilities available could handle the sudden influx of participants. There would be problems out the a$.

I say, let's just keep it under the radar and let those that want to get in to the sport find it on their own. Those are the ones you really want involved anyway.

Sarge, how did you know exactly what I was thinking?

I don't like Tom, Dick, and Harry anyway!