Shipping Frames

[outerlimits]

i get that handguns must be shipped overnight. need to get a slide and frame re-finished. if shipped without any parts but the frame and slide, is it still considered a handgun and subject to overnight shipping? if so, heck, that's about 1/2 the price of the re-finishing itself!

[ihatepickles]

Sadly it's still a firearm. You might save a few bucks in the end if you knew an FFL that could send it USPS on your behalf.

[superdude]

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Edited November 3, 2011 by superdude

[EkuJustice]

Handgun via USPS is dealer to dealer only.

[cyburg]

That's whwn you by a lower of a pistol or rifle it is supose to go.thru a.ffl. last thing you want to do is get in trouble for doing it illigally. It would really suck it was a felony and they too all your guns.

[lcs]

Sadly it's still a firearm. You might save a few bucks in the end if you knew an FFL that could send it USPS on your behalf.

NOT by UPS standards. You can send frame/slide ground from the UPS hub. Not one of those privately owned UPS stores. Read shipping instructions on APW site.

[Rob Boudrie]

Sadly it's still a firearm. You might save a few bucks in the end if you knew an FFL that could send it USPS on your behalf.

NOT by UPS standards. You can send frame/slide ground from the UPS hub. Not one of those privately owned UPS stores. Read shipping instructions on APW site.

True. There are multiple definitions of "Firearm" depending on the context. Here in the Democratic People's Republik of Massachusetts, a stripped frame is not a firearm under state law, but is under federal law - which means fewer forms at the dealer having a frame transferred than having a full gun transferred.

Frames were recently (within the past years) moved into a third category federally, as you now check one of 3 boxes on a 4473 - handgun, long gun or frame. (not sure the exact wording the feds use). This was done since federal law allows you to buy a long gun outside your state of residence, so moving the frames into a category different than "long gun" put an end to out of state purchases of AR lowers.

consider shipping via the post office. I asked our local post office about shipping a handgun to the manufacturer for repair, and they said it was fine as long as it was disassembled. maybe the rules are different if it's not the manufacturer but you could call them and ask. it saved me a lot of money.

As has been previously noted, this is information is absolutely incorrect. Not only is postal handgun shipping restricted to FFL holders, but the FFL holder must have a form PS1508 on file with the post office from which handguns are mailed.

Please, Please edit your post and remove this bogus information that could be very dangerous to someone's gun rights.

[ChuckS]

Butch,

It took some digging since the form 4473 is now a "smart form" but here is the section:

Question 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. “Other” refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are “firearms” by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(. 18 U.S.C. Section 922((1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a “firearm other than a shotgun or rifle,” it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip firearms, since they are not “pistols or revolvers” under Section 923(g)(3)(a).

Dunno if that helps but there ya go...

Later,

Chuck

[DWFAN]

Sadly it's still a firearm. You might save a few bucks in the end if you knew an FFL that could send it USPS on your behalf.

NOT by UPS standards. You can send frame/slide ground from the UPS hub. Not one of those privately owned UPS stores. Read shipping instructions on APW site.

At first I thought UPS's standards may have changed since APW wrote those since UPS's link on their site is dead.

http://www.apwcogan.com/instructions.html

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=1&srch_phr=firearms

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).

Then I looked up the definition of a handgun:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/921.html

(29) The term handgun means

(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

( B ) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

So, I guess the question is.. If I leave out a firing pin, or barrel, is it still a handgun? More importantly do I want to risk it getting lost, and UPS not honoring the insurance claim?

Edited November 3, 2011 by DWFAN

[lcs]

Sadly it's still a firearm. You might save a few bucks in the end if you knew an FFL that could send it USPS on your behalf.

NOT by UPS standards. You can send frame/slide ground from the UPS hub. Not one of those privately owned UPS stores. Read shipping instructions on APW site.

At first I thought UPS's standards may have changed since APW wrote those since UPS's link on their site is dead.

http://www.apwcogan....structions.html

http://www.ups.com/c...ch_phr=firearms

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).

Then I looked up the definition of a handgun:

http://www.law.corne...ode/18/921.html

(29) The term “handgun” means—

(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

( B ) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

So, I guess the question is.. If I leave out a firing pin, or barrel, is it still a handgun? More importantly do I want to risk it getting lost, and UPS not honoring the insurance claim?

Right! If you send a bare frame and a slide---It is not considered a "handgun" by UPS. Notice I did not include FEDX. I insure the parts with UPS when I send them for plating.

[Carmoney]

Exactly. It's not illegal for an individual to ship a gun to a licensee via common carrier (UPS, Fedex, etc.) but if you violate that carrier's internal rules which require priority overnight service for shipping handguns, do you really think they're going to pay the insurance claim if it gets lost? I know.....it's a complete rip-off, but they hold all the cards.

As several others have stated, it is a federal crime for a non-licensee to ship a handgun or stripped handgun frame via the postal service. And believe me, "the guy at the counter said it was OK!" is not going to exculpate you if you get caught and prosecuted. So unless you hold a valid FFL, do not carry a handgun onto USPS premises.

[lcs]

Exactly. It's not illegal for an individual to ship a gun to a licensee via common carrier (UPS, Fedex, etc.) but if you violate that carrier's internal rules which require priority overnight service for shipping handguns, do you really think they're going to pay the insurance claim if it gets lost? I know.....it's a complete rip-off, but they hold all the cards.

As several others have stated, it is a federal crime for a non-licensee to ship a handgun or stripped handgun frame via the postal service. And believe me, "the guy at the counter said it was OK!" is not going to exculpate you if you get caught and prosecuted. So unless you hold a valid FFL, do not carry a handgun onto USPS premises.

Agree 100%. The post office is off limits for shipping any handgun frame UNLESS you are an FFL and have the required post office paperwork on file.

As an added Note; If you can find an FFL who has filed the paperwork with USPS, IT IS MUCH CHEAPER to ship a firearm.

Edited November 3, 2011 by lcs

[superdude]

.

Edited November 3, 2011 by superdude

[ihatepickles]

this is not bogus information. i called the local post office. this is what they told me. if it was an error it was their error, not mine. the facts are what the facts are whether you like them or not.

anyone considering shipping a firearm or frame should check with the shipper for the legality or procedures before they ship. that's what i did and i followed their rules. period.

What you're saying is a Federal crime. How far do you want to take this?

[lcs]

consider shipping via the post office. I asked our local post office about shipping a handgun to the manufacturer for repair, and they said it was fine as long as it was disassembled. maybe the rules are different if it's not the manufacturer but you could call them and ask. it saved me a lot of money.

As has been previously noted, this is information is absolutely incorrect. Not only is postal handgun shipping restricted to FFL holders, but the FFL holder must have a form PS1508 on file with the post office from which handguns are mailed.

Please, Please edit your post and remove this bogus information that could be very dangerous to someone's gun rights.

this is not bogus information. i called the local post office. this is what they told me. if it was an error it was their error, not mine. the facts are what the facts are whether you like them or not.

anyone considering shipping a firearm or frame should check with the shipper for the legality or procedures before they ship. that's what i did and i followed their rules. period.

We are just trying to help people from getting burned. Go to the source---ck the following statement from the source.

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.

[spanky]

My interpretation is that only FFL can ship to FFL via USPS for handguns. Others can ship rifles/shotguns. I don't know if the law has changed since the ATF reclassified "Receivers" as different from handguns/long guns but it mightn't be worth the risk without calling and asking the ATF.

Anyone can ship to an FFL via UPS or Fedex but it has to be done at a hub, most times. If it is being sent in for work/repair/etc, it can be shipped from the FFL directly back to the owner.

None of the above is considered legal advise and is strictly my opinion and should be taken as false information unless you know it to be factual.

Edited November 3, 2011 by spanky

[juan]

this is not bogus information. i called the local post office. this is what they told me. if it was an error it was their error, not mine. the facts are what the facts are whether you like them or not.

anyone considering shipping a firearm or frame should check with the shipper for the legality or procedures before they ship. that's what i did and i followed their rules. period.

What you're saying is a Federal crime. How far do you want to take this?

somebody needs to check this out.

I was told by my local usps I could ship back to the manufacture.

this by no means makes it legal, these are the same people that cant get bullets to my door.

Edited November 3, 2011 by juan

[lcs]

this is not bogus information. i called the local post office. this is what they told me. if it was an error it was their error, not mine. the facts are what the facts are whether you like them or not.

anyone considering shipping a firearm or frame should check with the shipper for the legality or procedures before they ship. that's what i did and i followed their rules. period.

What you're saying is a Federal crime. How far do you want to take this?

somebody needs to check this out.

I was told by my local usps I could ship back to the manufacture.

Go to USPS website and search, but here it is.

1. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1 or 601.11.2.

The "except" goes on to address FFL licencee and the proper form to file.

[DWFAN]

How much checking out does one need to do ? I dont care about what the person behind the counter at USPS says (especially the one's behind the counters at my post offices), I care about what the ATF says.. You know.. the guys who would be arresting me and charging me with a felony.

ATF Website:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Edited November 3, 2011 by DWFAN

[superdude]

okay. your arguments prevail. sorry. i don't mean to misguide anyone. was just relaying my experience. if i got bad advice then i got bad advice.

my apologies to all.

p.s. glad the issue has been clarified, even though at my expense. now i know better too.

Edited November 3, 2011 by superdude

[outerlimits]

ok-unless i mis-read everything, if all i wanted to ship was a slide and a frame, no other parts, then it ain't considered a handgun...hence, overnight ain't required.

[waktasz]

Nevermind...used to be you could do Fedex or UPS 2nd day air but looks like that changed.

Edited November 3, 2011 by waktasz

[Whitefish]

Fedex offers multiple levels of overnight. The most expensive is if it absolutely has to be delivered the next morning. If it can be delivered later in the "next" day, the cost is less. Last time I shipped a gun to Glock, I think it cost me around $46 for the later in the next day option via Fedex.

[al503]

ok-unless i mis-read everything, if all i wanted to ship was a slide and a frame, no other parts, then it ain't considered a handgun...hence, overnight ain't required.

I'm a cheap @ss. When I looked into the issue of shipping a pistol several years ago (through all of the statutes A-Z) any part, however oddly shaped and unsuitable to fire a projectile by itself is considered a firearm if it has the serial number. Look at it this way; if your package of 'machined parts' is lost/stolen, how are you going to file an insurance claim? If you decide to eat the loss, you still have to worry about it ending up in the wrong hands or it falling out of a damaged package. When the authorities look up the last registered owner you might be able to 'splain your way out of it.

[al503]

Fedex offers multiple levels of overnight. The most expensive is if it absolutely has to be delivered the next morning. If it can be delivered later in the "next" day, the cost is less. Last time I shipped a gun to Glock, I think it cost me around $46 for the later in the next day option via Fedex.

You don't have to send it sonic but you do have to send it priority before 10AM or noon (can't remember).