Production and Limited going in different directions...

[beltjones]

I was hoping someone with more experience than I have could shed some insight on a trend I've noticed.

There is a definite trend of shooters in Production toward heavier guns with full length dust covers. The rising popularity of the CZ Shadow in USPSA is an example of this.

At the same time shooters in Limited division seem to be going away from 5" guns with full length dust covers and toward 6" "fat free" guns.

Doesn't that seem a little incongruous? In Production you shoot powder puff loads, so the weight of the gun seems like a non-issue, yet people are ditching Glocks and M&Ps for CZs. In Limited the guns pop quite a bit more, and yet people are offloading weight from their guns as quickly as they can.

At 42 ounces the CZ isn't considered too heavy for a Production gun, yet all the time I see Limited shooters say they want to get their 6" guns down to 37 ounces.

Beyond weight, in Production people are moving away from the longer sight radius of the G34 to the shorter sight radius of the CZ, and in Limited they are moving toward the longer sight radius of the 6" guns.

Can anyone spot any rhyme or reason in all of this?

[Amerflyer48]

I'm guessing the theory would be

heavy gun light loads less snappy recoil , like the old PPC Revolvers

Limited lighter mass = quicker cycling to counteract the longer slide for sight radius,...so it is more like their Open gun.."stock" old school 6" .45s you can feel the slide cycle so gut the moving mass to a 5" slide weight and the best of both worlds (?)

As for shorter sight radius I am guessing they are accepting that as a price to pay for the weight they want as Production mods are fairly restricted.. longer sight radius in Limited because they can and I also find a longer sight plane easier to shoot,.. this explains why my front sights are on my comps on the old single stack Super and 10mm

in the safe.

John

[beltjones]

But my point is, unless you're shooting a Kel-Tec there isn't a 9mm in the game that I would say has "snappy" recoil, so the move toward heavier guns doesn't make sense to me.

However, in Limited division, I can see there would be a benefit to dampening recoil via a heavier gun, yet the trend is toward lightweight guns.

What doesn't make sense is why they seem to be going in opposite directions.

[z40acp]

I bet if they allowed 6" Production guns people would shoot them at the weight of the 5" G-34 or M&P Pro.

[beltjones]

I bet if they allowed 6" Production guns people would shoot them at the weight of the 5" G-34 or M&P Pro.

Would they? Then why are they going from the 5.3" G34 to the 4.5" CZ? The common answer is "the weight helps with recoil."

And yet in Limited they're going from heavy 5" guns to 6" guns that are often lighter in weight. The commonly cited reason is "faster transitions and longer sight radius."

[Racer377]

Maybe it's not weight and sight radius driving the decision toward the CZ? Assuming that these are actual trends, of course.

I switched to the CZ because it has a reputation of being very accurate, very reliable, and having a good trigger. I didn't really consider weight or sight radius at all. Well, I kinda considered weight because I thought I might want to do an occasional IDPA match, but because the short dustcover shadows are harder to find and a bit more expensive, I just got the SP01 Shadow. I would've got the 75, had all other things been equal.

[Chills1994]

I wish somebody would ditch an M&P in my direction....especially a .40 cal one.

I wouldn't say that what you read here on this forum or what you see happening at your local club as completely indicative of everything going on across all 20,000 USPSA members. So you might think it is a trend when it really isn't. (that's called salience bias by the way, for all you folks into heuristics).

If it actually is a trend, then my guess is it's the shiny new gun phenomenon...not so much a Smith's keeping up with the Jones's thing....but something along the lines of "Bob down at the club got a new gun. It's a CZ. I think I will have to get one too." mixed with boredom of one "toy" they already have and the novelty of getting something new, something you can be giddy over.

and from another forum, the cast boolits forum, there are tons and tons of "enablers" there.

[Chills1994]

somewhere else on the forums I posted a make believe conversation that went like this:

ROB: Hey Todd, are you shooting a six inch gun at this year's limited nat's?

TODD: Yeah, sure am! How 'bout you?

ROB: BEEP! BEEP! Oh wait, Todd, I got another call. It's Travis.

ROB: Hey, Travis, what's up? I got Todd on another line. Let me click over.

TRAVIS: Hey Rob!

ROB: Yeah, I got Todd on too.

TRAVIS: Hey Todd!

TODD: Hey, Travis! Rob and I were just talking about the 6 inch guns we are going to shoot at Nat's this year.

TRAVIS: Ahhh...man! You're gonna get all those guys on the Brian Enos forums worked up into a lather.

ROB: Ya, think?

TRAVIS: Oh, heck yeah. Everybody will be thinking that a six inch gun is the hot ticket next year.

TODD: Yeah, you're right! That'll keep gunsmiths busy next year. Ha! Ha! Hee! Hee!

Edited September 28, 2011 by Chills1994

[Flexmoney]

I was hoping someone with more experience than I have could shed some insight on a trend I've noticed.

People are gear-queers. Three to five years from now it will be some other BS.

[sperman]

I switched to a CZ because of the ergonomics and the trigger. Weight and sight radius were not a consideration.

I'll measure it when I get home, but I think the sight radius on my shadow is 4.75". Not a significant change from the 5" on my M&P 9L.

[steel1212]

For me even with 9mm the polymer framed guns still are snappy. The CZ is heavy yes, but it also has a phenomenal trigger in SA. It feels a lot like my 1911s. On top of that the gun is about the same weight at my 1911s.

The limited guns that I sold where very light and snappy. They cycled super fast though. The limited gun I'll have built will be a lot like my SS in the way they cycle. Fast but not so aggressive.

[LPatterson]

The thing I noticed at the Nationals with the true DA guns is that almost all drew to the full targets and transitioned to the partials even when they had to cross several targets. Whereas Glocks/Smiths usually shot left-right/right-left when it meant they started on partials.

[bbbean]

somewhere else on the forums I posted a make believe conversation that went like this:

ROB: Hey Todd, are you shooting a six inch gun at this year's limited nat's?

TODD: Yeah, sure am! How 'bout you?

ROB: BEEP! BEEP! Oh wait, Todd, I got another call. It's Travis.

ROB: Hey, Travis, what's up? I got Todd on another line. Let me click over.

TRAVIS: Hey Rob!

ROB: Yeah, I got Todd on too.

TRAVIS: Hey Todd!

TODD: Hey, Travis! Rob and I were just talking about the 6 inch guns we are going to shoot at Nat's this year.

TRAVIS: Ahhh...man! You're gonna get all those guys on the Brian Enos forums worked up into a lather.

ROB: Ya, think?

TRAVIS: Oh, heck yeah. Everybody will be thinking that a six inch gun is the hot ticket next year.

TODD: Yeah, you're right! That'll keep gunsmiths busy next year. Ha! Ha! Hee! Hee!

No, no no. The actual transcript reads:

ROB: Whazzup!?

TODD: WHAAZZUP!

ROB: BEEP! BEEP! Oh wait, Todd, I got another call. It's Travis.

ROB: Hey, Travis, whazzup!?

TRAVIS: Whazzup!

ROB: Yeah, I got Todd on too.

TRAVIS: Whazzup!

Todd: Whazzup!

etc...

[Walküre]

Limited lighter mass = quicker cycling to counteract the longer slide for sight radius,...so it is more like their Open gun.."stock" old school 6" .45s you can feel the slide cycle so gut the moving mass to a 5" slide weight and the best of both worlds (?)

That only applies to the mass of the slide. Lightening your frame - like, say, having a short dustcover instead of a full-length one - does nothing to affect the action, just the overall weight.

I for one run heavy guns in all divisions. I run a standard TS in Limited, and have zero desire to ever have the dustcover cut down a la the CZC "CTS" treatment. I run a 75 SP-01 Shadow in Production, and don't have any desire to run a 75 Shadow instead. (I would prefer to run something with the qualities of an original pre-B short-rail, but unfortunately, the only thing that fits the bill is an original short-rail.)

ETA - Oh, and though I don't want to cut down the frame of my TS, I have often considered sending out the slide to be lightened - to reduce moving mass during cycling.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Walküre

[Sarge]

I wish somebody would ditch an M&P in my direction....especially a .40 cal one.

I wouldn't say that what you read here on this forum or what you see happening at your local club as completely indicative of everything going on across all 20,000 USPSA members. So you might think it is a trend when it really isn't. (that's called salience bias by the way, for all you folks into heuristics).

If it actually is a trend, then my guess is it's the shiny new gun phenomenon...not so much a Smith's keeping up with the Jones's thing....but something along the lines of "Bob down at the club got a new gun. It's a CZ. I think I will have to get one too." mixed with boredom of one "toy" they already have and the novelty of getting something new, something you can be giddy over.

and from another forum, the cast boolits forum, there are tons and tons of "enablers" there.

Yeah, I think your "trend" is not that at all. I shoot more than the average weekend warrior and I see it like this:

Tons of Glocks

Some M&P's

A few XD variants

and the occasional CZ

[Steve Anderson]

the real question is whether there will be a run on beretta elite II's.

gear queers... That's funny.

heavy guns, long guns, short guns, light guns.

they all need someone to pay attention...

[Walküre]

Yeah, I think your "trend" is not that at all. I shoot more than the average weekend warrior and I see it like this:

Tons of Glocks

Some M&P's

A few XD variants

and the occasional CZ

I'd say that there is a certain type of "trend" for sure.

We definitely aren't trending in the sense that CZs will take over; the major players are going to remain plastic wonder pistols for the foreseeable future.

But there does seem to be growing interest in heavy, DA/SA platforms like the CZ. More CZs are definitely starting to show up at matches. It used to be that I was often the only CZ shooter at a match. Now I'll see at least another Shadow or SP-01, if not several. I've even seen another TS shooter, at the Indiana sectional last year.

[MustangGreg66]

I've seen some people swap to CZs, one switch back, and some shooters entering Production from other divisions choosing the CZ as well. I think gun weight has less to do with it than the actual ergos.

I usually shoot a Glock and have tried some of the CZs around here. I don't really care for the longer reset in their SA pull and sure don't like the long heavy DA pull. I've definitly seen the first DA shot go screwy and I've seen it short stroked too. Then again these are things one can learn to deal with and overcome with practice... for me, I'll stick with my Glock.

I do lust after a 6" limited gun though haha. Not that I could afford or justify one at the price.

[Nik Habicht]

the real question is whether there will be a run on beretta elite II's.

gear queers... That's funny.

heavy guns, long guns, short guns, light guns.

they all need someone to pay attention...

Don't they all just really need someone to "pick one and practice?" :devil:

[Philo_Beddoe]

I don't really care for the longer reset in their SA pull and sure don't like the long heavy DA pull.

My shadow has a 6 lb DA pull a 3 lb SA pull and it resets as soon as the trigger leaves the frame. You probably tried a stock 75b, which do have long resets due to the firing pin block and heavy pulls do to heavy stock springs and their hammers are not the greatest either.

As far as the shadows popularity, I think it has more to do with the ergo's and accuracy then weight and barrel lenght.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe

[Lee G]

I don't really care for the longer reset in their SA pull and sure don't like the long heavy DA pull.

A stock trigger on any gun will put you at a disadvantage, although the stock DA pull on most CZ's is much heavier than Glock. With a little work you can easily get it down to 6#/3#. With some careful attention the shadow is capable of a 4#/2# pull that is incredibly smooth.

[LPatterson]

I've seen some people swap to CZs, one switch back, and some shooters entering Production from other divisions choosing the CZ as well. I think gun weight has less to do with it than the actual ergos.

I usually shoot a Glock and have tried some of the CZs around here. I don't really care for the longer reset in their SA pull and sure don't like the long heavy DA pull. I've definitly seen the first DA shot go screwy and I've seen it short stroked too. Then again these are things one can learn to deal with and overcome with practice... for me, I'll stick with my Glock.

I do lust after a 6" limited gun though haha. Not that I could afford or justify one at the price.

If you like a Glock then check the classifieds for a G24. Sorry neither of mine are for sale.

[MustangGreg66]

I've seen some people swap to CZs, one switch back, and some shooters entering Production from other divisions choosing the CZ as well. I think gun weight has less to do with it than the actual ergos.

I usually shoot a Glock and have tried some of the CZs around here. I don't really care for the longer reset in their SA pull and sure don't like the long heavy DA pull. I've definitly seen the first DA shot go screwy and I've seen it short stroked too. Then again these are things one can learn to deal with and overcome with practice... for me, I'll stick with my Glock.

I do lust after a 6" limited gun though haha. Not that I could afford or justify one at the price.

If you like a Glock then check the classifieds for a G24. Sorry neither of mine are for sale.

I shoot a G34/35 at the moment but a 24 for limited would be awesome

[RangerTrace]

I wish somebody would ditch an M&P in my direction....especially a .40 cal one.

I wouldn't say that what you read here on this forum or what you see happening at your local club as completely indicative of everything going on across all 20,000 USPSA members. So you might think it is a trend when it really isn't. (that's called salience bias by the way, for all you folks into heuristics).

If it actually is a trend, then my guess is it's the shiny new gun phenomenon...not so much a Smith's keeping up with the Jones's thing....but something along the lines of "Bob down at the club got a new gun. It's a CZ. I think I will have to get one too." mixed with boredom of one "toy" they already have and the novelty of getting something new, something you can be giddy over.

and from another forum, the cast boolits forum, there are tons and tons of "enablers" there.

Yeah, I think your "trend" is not that at all. I shoot more than the average weekend warrior and I see it like this:

Tons of Glocks

Some M&P's

A few XD variants

and the occasional CZ

Cost may have something to do with your list. I'll bet your list also has them from least expensive to most expensive....

[Z-man]

I really don't think it's a question of weight. Weight in production is a trade off. With a CZ you can definitely increase your split speed because the gun DOESN'T move in recoil. With a glock the gun is a little quicker in transition. I think the biggest reason that the DA/SA guns like CZ are gaining favor is the trigger system. You get a 1911 like trigger and only have to contend with the DA trigger for, at most, 20 shots. At the nationals they usually have a couple empty gun starts as well which cuts down on the DA shots as well. A well tuned CZ single action feels very very nice with a short reset. It's hard to get the polymer guns to compare. I think that is the biggest reason for the shift. When I was shooting a CZ I remember thinking that I was cheating because the gun felt much more like a limited gun than production.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Z-man