Alan Adamson Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I know that Cmore is coming out with a newer compact version of their scope, but I'm itching to try something in the offseason. For the life of me I can't index a Cmore in a traditional mount on an open gun... I hunt around for the dot like a wild person, and yet on the 90 degree mount, I find it every time. But to be honest, I'm getting tired of transitions right to left and having the target blocked by the scope. I'm also fairly confident that the dot track on a sideways scope is *different* than a Cmore that's right side up. It actually has to be given the way the hinge works on a cmore and how the scope has no support. To flex side to side (when upright) becomes flex up and down with at 90 degrees mount and actually it's worse than that, it's 90 degrees in a twisting motion so actually the dot will have a tendency to track up and to the right or left just given the way a Cmore is hinged. So... I'm curious to lower the dot to the bore so I can find it *and* to keep it upright to avoid the left/right target blockage... I'm wanting to try a Deltapoint. And I dumb to even think of going there? Will it be a waste of dollars? (I can always put it on my AR if I don't like it on an open gun ...) I'd most likely use JoJo's mount... The other fundamental question... I shoot a 6 MOA dot on my Cmore and quite like it... but a 3.5 on the DP seems *really small*, would be be approx 1/2 the size of my 6MOA dot? I'm not sure I could get used to using te 7.5 MOA Delta, and using the tip of the delta in a 6 oclock hold type fashion... So, I'm looking for feedback... Good, bad, talk me into, out of, etc... I searched, but didn't really find the answers to the above, and out of all the microdots, I like the size, qty of the DP better than the STS, or the others... Let me know you thoughts on the topic, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The DP or STS will not lower it enough to make a diffrence when compared to the standard cmore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 The DP or STS will not lower it enough to make a diffrence when compared to the standard cmore. Hmm... really? It certainly looks like it will but if not, I'll be hunting for that dot too ... Ya know, you just reminded me... Ive got a friend with a Micro Dot Aimpoint on a mount from Derek... I should at least look at that first... if that will bring the dot down to an acceptable position, I would think an DP would... The Cmore setting on the mount sets up at least 3/8-1/2 before you even get to the hinge and the glass is above that, so I'd have to look, but the bottom of the glass has to be almost .75" above the top of the slide. And the dot then another 3/8-1/2 above that... call it 1 1/4 above the slide. The DP *has* to be closer to the top of the slide than that... Of course the 90 degree cmore puts that dot the same 3/8-1/2" above the slide plus clearance that the mount provides... I just don't see how the sideways mount can help the dot track, but I know I can't index a Cmore upright... (well, I'm sure I could, but it would take lots of practice and I would prefer not to take that step backwards... Plus I really like that my index stays pretty much the same between irons and glass with the sideways... .if it just didn't have the other issues... Never is a holy grail is there? ... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpoobah Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Hi Alan: The C-More red dot compact scope is not so hot - the DeltaPoint and/or the RMR are both superior. I have had experience with the Leupold but have the RMR Trijicon on order. To wit: I would advise against the DeltaPoint as I just had one and shot approx. 2K rounds with it - mounted directly to the slide - which is fantastic - but do not like it for practical shooting. The Delta at 7.5 M.O.A. appears far larger and it is impossible to accurately set p.o.a. in the center of the Triangle as there is no reference points on the target cross hairs. It is an approximation. If you set it for the tip of the Delta your instinct is to shoot high as you instinctively place it to the center of a plate. Once it is zeroed in - and the little #5 Torx head screws are a pain in the ass and moreover the elevation screw had no feedback so you didn't really know if you moved it or not. What a needless frustration ofr $400 or so dollars. Once you do zero it in it is suitable for plates - not as fast as a dot as the eye has to digest too much information but usable. On paper it is difficult as it is too wide and hard to call your shots. I sent mine back but the quality was nice and mounting it directly to a scallop cut was great - it is on the bore and you can't ask for a sight closer to the bore than that.Also cleaning the gun (dis-assembling it) is a joy. Leupold Customer Service is first class and a big plus but the warrantee on the electronics - the only part that would go bad - is only 2 years (same on Trijicon). I ordered the Trijicon because it has an adjustable brightness mode with the sensor out of the picture when this mode is used so it doesn't decide for you how bright it should be. The 6.5 M.O.A. dot should be perfect. The click adjustments are a blessing. I believe this will work out fine. I had four Doctor sights go bad years and years ago when I first tried mounting it to the slide of a .40 Open Gun but then the P.F. was 175 and we loaded to 180 or so. In the intervening years I believe the technology has advanced and I hope the new scopes will take the shock on the slides. I shoot .38 S.C. and put 4000 rounds through the DeltaPoint without a problem before giving up on it so it looks promising. When the Trijicon arrives I will update this post. I plan to use the gun smith blank and mount it directly to a scallop cut on the rear of the slide. This is really great for instinctive shooting and it almost sits on the barrel. Hope this adds a little info to the pot - good luck with your decision. Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Alan, The only way you could get the DP that close to the bore is to mount it to the slide. I do not that you would like that either. I'm going to try the barry mount for the cmore this winter and see how that works out. I've not taken the measurements yet but I think the angle of the barry will be give a little less obstruction that the other 90 degree mounts. But to be honest the best cure for your problem is having a neutral grip and stance. Nothing 100's of hours of dry firing will not cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Alan, The only way you could get the DP that close to the bore is to mount it to the slide. I do not that you would like that either. I'm going to try the barry mount for the cmore this winter and see how that works out. I've not taken the measurements yet but I think the angle of the barry will be give a little less obstruction that the other 90 degree mounts. But to be honest the best cure for your problem is having a neutral grip and stance. Nothing 100's of hours of dry firing will not cure. Jon.... True, enough. Good input from both posters... I got ahold of my friends micro do (T1 or H1 Aimport) so I'll take a look at that... Guess I may have to see how much I could improve my index on a top mounted cmore ... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Here is a pic of the barry from one of our forum members. You think you have the same obstruction from your 90 degree mount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The C-more STS and DP (and JPoint) have the same hole pattern and will both drop into the same mount (you either have to have the mount use STS-size bolts and very slightly ream the DP/JP or use smaller bolts to hold the STS on). If you have trouble losing the dot with a big lens, you will not have it easier with either of those. With the smaller lens, it's even easier to lose and harder to find the dot if you don't have a perfect index. FWIW, the JPoint is ~1/8" lower than either of the STS & DP (those two are extremely close in overall size and location of the dot) if you are looking for absolute lowness. All of them are much lower dot-to-bore than a straight-up C-more. Although Jon disagrees, I think there's a very noticeable difference. As others have said, the "7.5" triangle on the DP is way bigger than a 7.5 min dot-- too big for me, and I sometimes shoot a 12-min on my C-mores, so I want back to the STS for my World Shoot gun. I have had bad luck with the auto-adjustment going out on my STS scopes-- it broke on both after about 300 rounds (I sent one back and they fixed it, but I've not beat it up yet). I just run it full-bright and am happy like that. Do try one of the newer tube scopes. Those have a great advantage for indexing the dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Although Jon disagrees, I think there's a very noticeable difference. Not so much disagree since I do not have an exact measurment but I do not think it is to the extreme that Alan was looking for. The DP/STS dot on my set up is about 1 3/8" about center of the bore. I'm using the Rescomp mount on one and the Arredondo on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Topic on C-More RTS Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Apparently the dot/delta sizes are actually larger than stated, or at least as compared to Cmores. . I shot the delta for a bit and thought it was huge. One of my buddies has the 3.5 dot and thinks it is equal to about a 6 or 7 Cmore dot. Also this is what Leopold's sponsored shooter Jessie uses. Not saying this is your answer but I wouldn't rule out the 3.5 until you see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I've got CMores with 8MOA dots and the delta'd DP. Side by side, the delta appears 2-2.5 times larger than the CMore dot. The delta is enormous. If I had it to do over again, I'd get the dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I looked through a Deltapoint with a round dot in it and thought it superior to the triangle. I don't know what size it was supposed to be, or even if it's widely available, but it's what I'd look for if heading towards a DP for it's other good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Alan, The only way you could get the DP that close to the bore is to mount it to the slide. I do not that you would like that either. I'm going to try the barry mount for the cmore this winter and see how that works out. I've not taken the measurements yet but I think the angle of the barry will be give a little less obstruction that the other 90 degree mounts. But to be honest the best cure for your problem is having a neutral grip and stance. Nothing 100's of hours of dry firing will not cure. That's what it will look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Here is a pic of the barry from one of our forum members. You think you have the same obstruction from your 90 degree mount? lol I guess I should have kept reading. I posted that years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Yeah I stole your pic George. You still running that set up? How you like it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 (edited) Yeah I stole your pic George. You still running that set up? How you like it? I shot that for a few years, off and on, while playing in Production also. Then I took a few years off. The thing I like most is, you can easily go back and forth with Open and Limited with very little adjustment. The dot is just above where the sights would be. You don't have to relearn the gun mount. I shot back to back Nationals, Limited then Open, and didn't feel "off". Now that I am pretty sure I earned my M card in Production this year (waiting for classifiers to get updated), I'm going back to Open. The gun is almost the same. I stippled the grip, added a slide racker, and am going to add a thumb-rest. I will say this, if your reloads aren't great, shoot Production for a year. Then reloading to an Open gun is cake... Edited September 25, 2011 by GeorgeInNePa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 <drift> What reloads? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 <drift> What reloads? LOL Anytime I shoot a Classifier or a stage with a round count higher than 30... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SN13 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 That "Barry mount" is new to me. It seems to address some of the issue with the 90* mount blocking so much of the left field of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Take a look at an Insight MRDS, it has a lot of advantages over the DeltaPoint. http://www.insightlights.com/products-mrds.htm Click adjustments and you change the battery from the top, don't have to remove the sight to change battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 The C-More RTS seems to be a promising compromise, Just waiting for someone to come out with a decent frame mount for it. I have a M&P pro with a 7.5T delta points, that I used for steel challenge. I find it while its a great tactical sight, it is a little harder to find and get back on target vs a Cmore, I'm thinking this has more to do with the fact that the DP is mounted to the slide rather than the frame, but for a competition scenario the "bigger is better" seems to still hold true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Take a look at an Insight MRDS, it has a lot of advantages over the DeltaPoint. http://www.insightlights.com/products-mrds.htm Click adjustments and you change the battery from the top, don't have to remove the sight to change battery. Too bad they do not list the lens dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 That "Barry mount" is new to me. It seems to address some of the issue with the 90* mount blocking so much of the left field of view. If you search it you will see it's been around a long time. I'm not sure why it's not more popular. Sighting it in might be a little more difficult though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) Ultimately, I may have found my solution... I just played with an Aimpoint MicroDot, an H1 on an MCG mount.... In a word... Wow. I decided to try an experiment... closed my eyes, indexed the gun, opened my eyes... Dot was smack in the middle of the scope. Did that 3 times in a row... Then missed one, but found it easily. After an hour of playing I was hooked. The dot is a bit smaller, but it seems easy to pick up. This is with a mount that puts a tiny bit of mass on the right side of the gun (the on/off dot intensity knob)... If you have Serendipity mounting holes on the right side of the gun, you could go with Derek, or Sauls mount and solve that, it turns the scope at 90 degrees and puts the on/of/intensity knob on the top... For me, this just might be the best of all worlds.... Still have to shoot it to see what the dot does as the glass is smaller on the H1/T1 than a Cmore, but with the mounts noted above, even holes in the barrel aren't going to be an issue, nor is ejection.... While everyone is different, I really like the looks/feel/index/dot/presentation, etc of this combination... But again, I've not shot it yet... Also as a note, I talked to Cmore today... The RTS is available for purchase and they are in stock... Info should be up on their website next week... And they were quickly working on a flyer...good things coming from there too... I'd like to see one in person.... Alan Edited October 1, 2011 by Alan Adamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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