Rules and Scoring for 3 Gun

[Jim Norman]

Best way is to not deal with it at all, and get rid of major/minor for multigun all together.

That is what we have done. Either score it all Major, a .223/5.56 is minor and certainly more powerful than a .40 cal, heck at 3000fps a 55gr 5.56 is a 165 PF so it is arguably Major. Or suck it up and score it all Minor. We use HF scoring to get the stage results and then assign the percentage as points to get match points. One can easily multiply the stage points by 1.25 or 1.5 if you want to go to a HF based Horner system, 100 points for one gun, 125 for two and 150 for three.

Palms and Stage Score can be used, every USPSA shooter can easily score the stage, A, B, C, D, no different than what we already do.

Time plus only works if all the stages are very closely balanced as to time. Too often the penalties in time plus can turn the match into an accuracy match. .5 seconds for a C 1.5 for a D is too steep. People start slowing way down.

My opinion.

[buzzworm]

Ok

Question

Why do we have to have ONE unified set of 3 Gun or Multi gun rules?

I know someone at he Home oOffice is working hard on a project to come up with “one set of Multi Gun rules” (to increase membership in this growing sport you must have a rule book over 200 pages long). . . I only see this as a way to piss off everybody.

I voted in the poll on page one that I don’t want one set of rules for all three gun matches. (yeah yeah yeah my opinion is worth less than the time that it takes you to finish reading till this point.)

But ( rant mode “on”)

I like the fact that each of the “Outlaw” matches are played by slightly different rules

In my little perverse way I like going to ‘Match X” and playing in their sandbox and their range rule that states ‘No firearms shall be abandoned with ANY live ammo in them”, and then next month I play at major “Match Y” with a slightly different set of rules, then I go to Raton and start all over again. (MGM is in its own league)

If I don’t like the way a match is run or scored because it does not suit my style, I don’t go . . . No hard feelings,

At this point in time all of these matches are full and I’m probably not going to be missed.

Now I’m not going to start Singing and Preaching about “Diversity” makes us better or humming “Kumbaya”. . . .but I personally find the added challenge and the subtle nuances of each of the big Outlaw Matches is why I will drive 1,600 miles round trip for a day and a half 3 gun match.

No matter what the rules are from match to match the people who enjoy this sport and the competition will continue to show up and the ones who whine and use the rules and scoring of the match DuJuor as an excuse as to why they sucked that weekend will continue to do so whether it is for or against Horner, IMG, USPSA, IDPA or . . .whatever the MD’s come up with.

“better bring you your big boy britches if’en yous wants ta play da big boys games. . . . . Skippy”

(Rant mode “Off”

Please let the Flame war correcting my faulty thinking begin . . . Now)

I don't like to quote other's comments, but I agree 100 %. If I'm going to spends 2-3 days round trip travel time, $$$ in match fees and lodging, hours loading ammo, time spent to practice (although my scores don't show this) and 2-3 days shooting, I also spend ten minutes reading the rules.

[b2alphaplease]

One of the best choices is not even listed...USPSA Time-Plus. Probably because no-one knows what it is. I've run several matches with it and it is fast and simple. Sure, call it an adaptation of IMGA. FWIW, I have it on good authority that while there is a provisional 2011 rule set, there is a new set being written that fixes many of the "bad areas" within that ruleset. Spent a good deal of time talking to one of the people working on it and it sure makes sense. What is exceptionally silly is that MG nationals won't be using this ruleset.

The 2011 MG rules are 30 pages, but skip to page 21 where the Time-Plus option is explained: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2011_Multigun_Rules%2012_15_2010.pdf

I'm going to try this scoring method at the next local 3-G match (in 2 weeks).

It looks much like IMGA with each stage normalized to 100 points.

I'm give an update here afterwards.

One thing I did not notice in the rules is a time out provision. Is there one that I overlooked?

Tim

[MarkCO]

One of the best choices is not even listed...USPSA Time-Plus. Probably because no-one knows what it is. I've run several matches with it and it is fast and simple. Sure, call it an adaptation of IMGA. FWIW, I have it on good authority that while there is a provisional 2011 rule set, there is a new set being written that fixes many of the "bad areas" within that ruleset. Spent a good deal of time talking to one of the people working on it and it sure makes sense. What is exceptionally silly is that MG nationals won't be using this ruleset.

The 2011 MG rules are 30 pages, but skip to page 21 where the Time-Plus option is explained: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2011_Multigun_Rules%2012_15_2010.pdf

I'm going to try this scoring method at the next local 3-G match (in 2 weeks).

It looks much like IMGA with each stage normalized to 100 points.

I'm give an update here afterwards.

One thing I did not notice in the rules is a time out provision. Is there one that I overlooked?

Tim

Not that I have seen. Maximum for any stage is 500 seconds, so I'd not try to run stages over 240. Not sure if that is something being looked at to add to the re-write or not.

[AlamoShooter]

I would never had purchased 3 gun gear if I thought that 3 gun would ever be limited /or (= governed ) by one set of equipment and scoring rules. I like the variations

So long as the rules are posted before we pay our match fee.

What religion is it that approves of only one sexual position for married couples?

Edited September 25, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[ShootfastRunfaster]

I would never had purchased 3 gun gear if I thought that 3 gun would ever be limited /or (= governed ) by one set of equipment and scoring rules. I like the variations

So long as the rules are posted before we pay our match fee.

What religion is it that approves of only one sexual position for married couples?

My thoughts exactly. Having different rules for different matches has given me the excuses to try out other equipment. I see this game growing bigger and bigger over the next few years. One set of rules for everything would make it boring like NASCAR.

We really watch NASCAR for the rubbing, bumping, and pile ups, right?

Wait, that may be in the other religions, not NASCAR.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The main reason I am in favor of 1 rule set and 1 scoring system is to make it easy on beginners.

I am sure we can all agree that more shooters in 3 gun is a good thing, can't we?

More shooters means more matches, even more sponsors which means even more prizes and more than likely more gun and gear innovations.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

I would never had purchased 3 gun gear if I thought that 3 gun would ever be limited /or (= governed ) by one set of equipment and scoring rules. I like the variations

So long as the rules are posted before we pay our match fee.

What religion is it that approves of only one sexual position for married couples?

My thoughts exactly. Having different rules for different matches has given me the excuses to try out other equipment. I see this game growing bigger and bigger over the next few years. One set of rules for everything would make it boring like NASCAR.

We really watch NASCAR for the rubbing, bumping, and pile ups, right?

Wait, that may be in the other religions, not NASCAR.

I hope someday soon we can be as boring as NASCAR and have their following with Budweiser, Tide, and Kotex tossing money at 3 Gun Nation for advertising rights.

[Tyro Shooter]

Ahhh

to be as boring as NASCAR

Motor coaches, groupies, catered sponcers tent by Wolfgang Puck, Andy Horner being spocered by Gillete, watching Team Benelli at the ribbon cutting cerimony at the ammo isle at the local walmart.

thats what I'm waiting for. . . .

"sure thing little honey . . .I'll sign that one for ya . . . .whooa better put on some sun screen now, don't want to get them sunburned"

Yep . . . . . we're on T.V. . . . .big money 's just around the corner . . . . right????

(Does that make multi gun under USPSA rules like restrictor plate racing?)

[Jesse Tischauser]

Ahhh

to be as boring as NASCAR

Motor coaches, groupies, catered sponcers tent by Wolfgang Puck, Andy Horner being spocered by Gillete, watching Team Benelli at the ribbon cutting cerimony at the ammo isle at the local walmart.

thats what I'm waiting for. . . .

"sure thing little honey . . .I'll sign that one for ya . . . .whooa better put on some sun screen now, don't want to get them sunburned"

Yep . . . . . we're on T.V. . . . .big money 's just around the corner . . . . right????

(Does that make multi gun under USPSA rules like restrictor plate racing?)

[bigbrowndog]

more shooters does not mean more matches, it takes match directors and venues for more matches. We have lots and lots of shooters now, but very few people willing to step up and deal with the issues that go along with holding a big match. its easy to show up and shoot, hold a big match before you want to implement sweeping changes to the current rule sets.

More shooters means less chance of getting into the match you want.

Trapr

Edited September 29, 2011 by bigbrowndog

[Stlhead]

more shooters does not mean more matches, it takes match directors and venues for more matches. We have lots and lots of shooters now, but very few people willing to step up and deal with the issues that go along with holding a big match. its easy to show up and shoot, hold a big match before you want to implement sweeping changes to the current rule sets.

More shooters means less chance of getting into the match you want.

Trapr

Well put Sir. I was typing a similar comment but you did a much better job.

Cheers!

[MarkCO]

Seems to me that some of the people here saying NO to one ruleset are the same ones that complain about the coupled mag rule at RM3G, the 30 round rifle mag box at FNH, the no increasing number of shells in shotgun after the beep, etc.

FWIW, I agree with Trapr, and I am putting my $ where my mouth is and running both local and a larger match next year.

[AlamoShooter]

Seems to me that some of the people here saying NO to one ruleset are the same ones that complain about the coupled mag rule at RM3G, the 30 round rifle mag box at FNH, the no increasing number of shells in shotgun after the beep, etc.

FWIW, I agree with Trapr, and I am putting my $ where my mouth is and running both local and a larger match next year.

Thread drift

On Trapr's note And Mark's too . If ...If we had a new thread on the vote for something like "if you don't help with at least one event during the year should you be welcomed at all events"?

is any shooter just a 'show up and shoot' guy from what I have sean most Evey one helps at one event or more? its just a thought

It cost a person more to help with an event than it does to just show up and shoot, unless they have some kind of unlimited -payed vacation time-

I went to the trouble to get my Ro cert upgraded to include Multi-gun = uspsa has a lot of options on scoring, But I would hate to see 3 gun limited to just race format.

Thread drift off

Its like only having a vehicle that can be driven on pavement, I don't want to be limited to just the paved roads, I don't want to be limited by "roads" at all some times.

But when I am on the Road I work with the traffic laws

The match variation in rules and scoring let me see a new trail off the paved road

Edited September 29, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[abn-rgr]

more shooters does not mean more matches, it takes match directors and venues for more matches. We have lots and lots of shooters now, but very few people willing to step up and deal with the issues that go along with holding a big match. its easy to show up and shoot, hold a big match before you want to implement sweeping changes to the current rule sets.

More shooters means less chance of getting into the match you want.

Trapr

What he said!!!

[Benelli Chick]

So, since you brought it up...

I think that if by some magic, we get a ruleset...whatever (not really what I'd like, but anyway) - facetiousness alert...sort of!

I would like to add these rules at the end, for the good of growing the sport.

1) Anyone who wants to shoot more than 3 "majors" in one year, must volunteer as an RO...or at least some kind of worker...

at a major before they can shoot their 4th big match.

This would give our regular RO group a bit of a break and maybe they would then be able to SHOOT a match for "real" and not shoot like...$&%T.

2) After this magical new ruleset happens, anyone who posts on Enos that a match should add stages to let more people in, add days to let more people in, have a second match of the same size at a different time, throw a new flavor match just to see if anyone will come because they think they're interested in shooting in it...will not be allowed to shoot another major 3-Gun match until they have served as rangemaster or match director of a mid-level match (100 or more people, 20 or more sponsors, register shooters ahead of time, advertise nationally)!!!

This willexpand the mid-level matches throughout the country and help grow the sport so more people can get into different matches. There will be more matches around the country...more shooters...good for the sport, right??

I just like the idea, because so many people post about having new matches or whatever, and the same people are running and working most of the 3-Gun matches out there, and like Jeff, they don't get to shoot and enjoy the matches they're working on. Throwing a match isn't exactly like putting together a dinner party for 20!

RANT off!

Denise

[arsoncop9]

I love Denise. I will be the first to say thank you for the rm3g. And jj too.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

Since Denise opened this up, just what qualifies/certifies someone to be an RO? USPSA? IDPA? NRA? A combination of two or all three? And a few of us have done RO duties for what could be considered Super Gun matches otherwise known as Tank Crew Qualification.

just my two cents.

[MarkCO]

Since Denise opened this up, just what qualifies/certifies someone to be an RO? USPSA? IDPA? NRA? A combination of two or all three? And a few of us have done RO duties for what could be considered Super Gun matches otherwise known as Tank Crew Qualification.

just my two cents.

For the vast majority of the "Outlaw" matches, the qualification is to volunteer. Most MDs use a lot of their discretion, prior knowledge, asking others about a particular person etc. There are some MDs who have refused some volunteers for various reasons. In USPSA, there is a two day course, test, written and practical to be an RO. Then you have CRO (Cheif Range Officer). They also have a MG endorsement which requires you to read the rules and take a test. There are 20 USPSA MG/ROs and 33 MG/CROs total. About half of those folks do not even shoot 3G/MG and only work the USPSA nationals. I'll skip IDPA in order not to get in trouble. NRA has a 40 hour course to get started and a multitude of endorsements. I have been through all forms (RM/RO for RM3G as granted by the MD, USPSA CRO w/MG endorsement, IDPA SO, NRA instructor and RO) and, without reservation, the USPSA certifcation is the best.

With all that said, I have learned a phenominal amount from Shooters/MDs/ROs that have NO certifcations of any kind and some who don't even belong to any of the organizations. I know some USPSA CROs that I would not let RO at a kids water pistol match. As with everything, that piece of paper is only so good as the person holding it.

FWIW, I don't think Denise was on a rant, just stating some facts. No set of rules would ever get JJ and Denise (or any of the other MDs) to pour out the time, effort and love they do upon their matches.

Edited September 30, 2011 by MarkCO

[Bryan 45]

Since the topic is shifting, I would like to add there is no doubt I have become a better shooter after being involved as an RO at major matches. My individual match performance may suffer a little at some of the matches I have RO'd, but the experience I've gained from volunteering has far outweighted the time and energy expended running up and down the range w/ shooters. Not to mention I've met some of the best people in the world along the way. For anyone that has considered volunteering at a major match, but hasn't for various reasons, I would like to encourage you to jump in and email a match director.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Bryan 45

[bigbrowndog]

A good RO/volunteer will bust their ass "helping" "assisting" the shooters enjoy the match. They will be thoroughly worn out at days end, they will not be dicks to shooters, they will be there to assist and help. They more than likely will be constantly on the move, trying to streamline the process of moving shooters thru the stage, all the while being courteous to those shooters. If trouble occurs, they call the MD/RM to handle the being a dick part, so they can continue being helpful and courteous to the shooters. They do not change or make up new rules, they work very hard, shoot the match below their potential because of having to do in 1 or 2 days what the normal competitors get to do in 3 or 4 days all the while fixing, tweaking, game proofing stages so that the issues will be small when the normal shooters begin.

If after having volunteered you are not second guessing your decision to "volunteer" then you probably didn't truly offer the "help" that was expected of you, this goes for MDs, RMs, ROs, etc.

I remember hearing from others that the "best" way to learn and pick up tips on shooting better was to RO a major match, BS!!!! If you are truly helping you do not have time to learn tips from watching or speaking with others, you should be too busy, if you aren't then you aren't really helping!!!!

thats my 3cents,........Trapr

[Chuck Anderson]

A good RO/volunteer will bust their ass "helping" "assisting" the shooters enjoy the match. They will be thoroughly worn out at days end, they will not be dicks to shooters, they will be there to assist and help. They more than likely will be constantly on the move, trying to streamline the process of moving shooters thru the stage, all the while being courteous to those shooters. If trouble occurs, they call the MD/RM to handle the being a dick part, so they can continue being helpful and courteous to the shooters. They do not change or make up new rules, they work very hard, shoot the match below their potential because of having to do in 1 or 2 days what the normal competitors get to do in 3 or 4 days all the while fixing, tweaking, game proofing stages so that the issues will be small when the normal shooters begin.

If after having volunteered you are not second guessing your decision to "volunteer" then you probably didn't truly offer the "help" that was expected of you, this goes for MDs, RMs, ROs, etc.

I remember hearing from others that the "best" way to learn and pick up tips on shooting better was to RO a major match, BS!!!! If you are truly helping you do not have time to learn tips from watching or speaking with others, you should be too busy, if you aren't then you aren't really helping!!!!

thats my 3cents,........Trapr

Guess I must not be doing my part. Every time I RO I pick up something. Whether it's a different approach to a stage, different position to try later, different prep routine, something. Being able to see every shooter run a stage and see what works and what doesn't has always helped me. Guess I must just be one of those lazy RO's. That said, it's probably not the "best" way. But it is pretty dang effective.

[MarkCO]

I learned from Trapr how to not shoot birdshot plates with slugs on a stage at RM3G.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

I RO two to three times a month at local matches. I've only shot two major matches and both were this year. May get a chance next year to RO at a close by major match.

[bigbrowndog]

Yeah Mark, glad I could help, I learned how to irritate FB3Gdq way before you so there!!!

and Chuck you are lazy!!! those were just my generalizations they weren't carried down the mountain by moses, or signed by John Hancock. one tip from 5 days of hard work and 200-300 shooters, not a good way to increase your performance, but damn if I don't appreciate a good RO/volunteer, conversely I don't have much patience for bad ones either.

Trapr