Rules and Scoring for 3 Gun

[Jesse Tischauser]

Just curious is anyone else is as sick of having to reread the rules for every match 2-3 times before you go shoot?

[dillon]

I believe the fact that the "Outlaw" 3 gun matches fill up months in advance, whereas the USPSA Multigun Nationals still has slots available, bears this out. The differences between the various "outlaw" 3 gun events are relatively minor. As much as I love USPSA as an organisation, I wish they would adopt IMGA rules;then the other events would follow.

[abn-rgr]

I put yes for one rule set as long as its IMGA!!!

[dkleskiw]

Horner Scoring:

The Horner scoring system was devised by Andrew Horner. It falls along the lines of IDPA or Vickers scoring. Scores are determined on a time plus penalties system. Stages are worth a certain number of points based on the number of guns used during a stage. A stage involving 3 guns is worth 150 points, 2 guns 125 points and 1 gun 100 points, regardless of the number of targets.

Multiple-gun stages are worth more points due to the complexity of the stage. The competitor’s stage score is determined by the time it takes to complete the stage plus any penalties incurred along the way.

Typically, “A” or “B” zone hits incur no penalties, “C” zone hits add .5 seconds and “D” zone hits add 1.5 seconds. Steel targets must fall or be activated to score. A paper target with only 1 non A or B hit adds 5 seconds if the target is under 100 yards or 10 seconds if the target over 100 yards away. Targets over 100 yards with no hits incur a 20 second penalty. Failure to hit frangible or reactive targets such as steel or clay targets incur 10 seconds if the target is inside 100 and 20 seconds if over 100.

The Horner system specifically rewards targets at greater distances. The shooter with the fastest time takes all the available points and the other competitors scores are calculated as a percentage of the winning time. No power factor is involved in Horner scoring, however your ammo better be able to knock over any steel targets.

From: http://actionshootingpodcast.com/2009/08/27/getting-started-in-3-gun-part2-scoring/

[HS101]

I like the matches that I have been to that used the Horner scoring... Time Plus, but it does factor distance/accuracy into the equation, so it is not as easy to "game" a stage and just "throw" a shot at the long distance targets...

[Corey]

I prefer the standard 2 on paper/1A to neutralize with time plus penalty scoring. Long range targets need have sufficient time penalties to make people actually aim at them.

[SMSI]

I think it is great that different Outlaw matches have different scoring rules and allow for different procedural rules on stages. Its a states' rights type of thing - each match can be an experiment to see what is best or most popular, and each can be flexible according to what the organizers want to do. i think as we go along, most of the basic rules will become more standardized, especially safety rules. And the scoring rules will eventually boil down ot a few different sets. And variation will be good, as long as safety is not compromised and a competitor knows the rules in advance.

[Nuke8401]

The AR15 Rockcastle match was the first time I saw 2 on paper/1A scoring. It took me 2 stages to stop trying to shoot for "A"s on every target. Much time wasted. I would like a standard set of rule, don't care what they are. As an iron shooter, I like time plus because I can compare myself to other classes.

David E.

[Bryan 45]

The biggest problem I have with a standard set of rules are the ones I don't agree with! Like Chad said, "I pull for one rule set, as long as it's ______."

At least with multiple rule sets, we aren't necessarily stuck with rules we don't like for all matches.

I also favor Horner scoring. It's not quite as easy to score, but I still think 2 well placed shots should be worth a little more than 2 in the brown. (that doesn't sound quite right....)

[Jesse Tischauser]

The two issues I have with Horner or IDPA scoring.

First the penalties are too harsh for C's and D's. For a .5 or 1.5 second penaltiy I can hit 5-10 Alphas.

The OKC Gun Club and the 2011 High Plains rifle matches used a version of that system but they actually rewarded (-.25) time for every Alpha and penalized every Delta (+.5) It makes you want to shoot Alphas but it doesn't hurt so much when you shoot a neutral Charlie and it makes you think "do I need that Alpha or can I settle for a Charlie or Delta". IDPA or Horner requires a clean run or your out of it.

The other problem is it is much slower to score and teach the scoring to newbies.

Either way I woudl much rather use one across the board so we can train for it.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[abn-rgr]

but I still think 2 well placed shots should be worth a little more than 2 in the brown. (that doesn't sound quite right....)

UH.....well.......nevermind.

[JeremyM]

Im in favor for the 1 Alpha or 2 anywhere, because it takes less time to score both in between shooters and at the stat shack. Plus when matches have long shots, it gives you the best of both....spray and pray for close targets and precision for longer shots

[MarkCO]

One of the best choices is not even listed...USPSA Time-Plus. Probably because no-one knows what it is. I've run several matches with it and it is fast and simple. Sure, call it an adaptation of IMGA. FWIW, I have it on good authority that while there is a provisional 2011 rule set, there is a new set being written that fixes many of the "bad areas" within that ruleset. Spent a good deal of time talking to one of the people working on it and it sure makes sense. What is exceptionally silly is that MG nationals won't be using this ruleset.

The 2011 MG rules are 30 pages, but skip to page 21 where the Time-Plus option is explained: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2011_Multigun_Rules%2012_15_2010.pdf

[Chills1994]

I am a USPSA pistol match director...and I really like IDPA (Vickers) scoring.

as a shooter, I like being able to walk off a stage and calculate my score for that stage in my head. being able to add up nice round numbers is so much easier than say taking 119 points and dividing it by 14.35 seconds.

I started a thread elsewhere where I am going to try to hold a local club 3 gun/multi gun match, so I was looking for advice on scoring.

I really like the simplicity of 2 hits anywhere on paper = being neutralized

each not neutralized would add 5 or 10 seconds( I haven't decided yet) to your raw time.

all steel must fall. all clay birds must break, to score or be considered neutralized.

and I am kicking around the idea of anything that is major PF'ed only has to put one shot on each paper target.

another lifetime ago, I used to punch in raw data into a statistics program called SPSS. and it bugs me to no end to have stage points scoring. Arrghh.... you already have your raw data. there is no need to manipulate it any more than you have to.

whoever has the fastest or lowest score or "time" (just like in IDPA) is the winner

Edited September 16, 2011 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

^^^ sooo...hmm.... I guess what I am basically proposing up above is Steel Challenge scoring, where a miss or not neutralized tacks 5 seconds onto your score.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Chills1994

[Glock3422]

Our local 3-gun uses Horner scoring and one A/B or two anywhere on paper.

We felt it makes long shots matter and multiple guns on a stage rewarded appropriately while allowing for some hosing.

[Kevin Holman]

Our local 3-gun uses Horner scoring and one A/B or two anywhere on paper.

We felt it makes long shots matter and multiple guns on a stage rewarded appropriately while allowing for some hosing.

That's my favorite - and I beleive Texas MultiGun Championship 2011 used that method.

Simple IMGA 1A-B, 2 Anywhere, and Horner scoring to give more weight to multiple gun stages and stiff penalties on long distance targets to keep people from gaming them.

[abn-rgr]

One of the best choices is not even listed...USPSA Time-Plus. Probably because no-one knows what it is. I've run several matches with it and it is fast and simple. Sure, call it an adaptation of IMGA. FWIW, I have it on good authority that while there is a provisional 2011 rule set, there is a new set being written that fixes many of the "bad areas" within that ruleset. Spent a good deal of time talking to one of the people working on it and it sure makes sense. What is exceptionally silly is that MG nationals won't be using this ruleset.

The 2011 MG rules are 30 pages, but skip to page 21 where the Time-Plus option is explained: http://www.uspsa.org...012_15_2010.pdf

Thats pretty much IMGA scoring right???

[abn-rgr]

Our local 3-gun uses Horner scoring and one A/B or two anywhere on paper.

We felt it makes long shots matter and multiple guns on a stage rewarded appropriately while allowing for some hosing.

That's my favorite - and I beleive Texas MultiGun Championship 2011 used that method.

Simple IMGA 1A-B, 2 Anywhere, and Horner scoring to give more weight to multiple gun stages and stiff penalties on long distance targets to keep people from gaming them.

I like this idea a lot!!

[MarkCO]

One of the best choices is not even listed...USPSA Time-Plus. Probably because no-one knows what it is. I've run several matches with it and it is fast and simple. Sure, call it an adaptation of IMGA. FWIW, I have it on good authority that while there is a provisional 2011 rule set, there is a new set being written that fixes many of the "bad areas" within that ruleset. Spent a good deal of time talking to one of the people working on it and it sure makes sense. What is exceptionally silly is that MG nationals won't be using this ruleset.

The 2011 MG rules are 30 pages, but skip to page 21 where the Time-Plus option is explained: http://www.uspsa.org...012_15_2010.pdf

Thats pretty much IMGA scoring right???

Yep. With the addition of some of the things many have been complaining about not having, like no coaching, a verifiable way to make/appeal a RO call. But remember, they are changing. If you belong to USPSA, let your AD know what you want.

[Deathtrap]

And uspsa rules blow for open

[Glock3422]

Our local 3-gun uses Horner scoring and one A/B or two anywhere on paper.

We felt it makes long shots matter and multiple guns on a stage rewarded appropriately while allowing for some hosing.

That's my favorite - and I beleive Texas MultiGun Championship 2011 used that method.

Simple IMGA 1A-B, 2 Anywhere, and Horner scoring to give more weight to multiple gun stages and stiff penalties on long distance targets to keep people from gaming them.

I like this idea a lot!!

I should add that we do not have FTE or FTN. The paper points are either zero penalty seconds, six seconds, eight seconds or ten seconds. Our attempt was to make the system as easy to manage as possible. Obviously, an A/B or two on paper is zero.

Steel and clays are 5 seconds and long range (over 100 yds) is 15 seconds. We shoot to 300 yds. We have not had a slug shot over 100 yds, yet.

Procedurals are 10 seconds each.

There is a 60 second penalty available for special occassions.

Sorry-Edit to add

No Shoots are 10 seconds per hit.

Shoot throughs count.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Glock3422

[MarkCO]

And uspsa rules blow for open

They won't in the new revision.

[JP AKA iMacgyver]

7.62x39 should be considered major - just sayin

[outerlimits]

Uspsa will never use time plus at their nationals-no way to deal with major/minor