fiddler Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Shooting last week at the Montana Multigun my handguard got too hot to touch during sustained fire, I actually burned my palm. A glove on the weak hand helped but screwed up my shotgun reloads. I have one of those solid aluminum (I think) free float tubes on the rifle now. What should I do to keep the tube cool enough to hang on to? Drill holes in it? Replace it? With what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILDOTS Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Shooting last week at the Montana Multigun my handguard got too hot to touch during sustained fire, I actually burned my palm. A glove on the weak hand helped but screwed up my shotgun reloads. I have one of those solid aluminum (I think) free float tubes on the rifle now. What should I do to keep the tube cool enough to hang on to? Drill holes in it? Replace it? With what? If it were me I would replace it. I like the JP hand guard personally but the carbon fiber stay cool and are lighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 get one of these: http://www.firebirdprecision.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 If it were me I would replace it. I like the JP hand guard personally but the carbon fiber stay cool and are lighter. I used to think that carbon fiber stayed cool, but stage 1 at Rocky Mountain showed me different! The Firebird handguard probably has about the most ventilation with the JP extremely close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 If it were me I would replace it. I like the JP hand guard personally but the carbon fiber stay cool and are lighter. I used to think that carbon fiber stayed cool, but stage 1 at Rocky Mountain showed me different! The Firebird handguard probably has about the most ventilation with the JP extremely close. Primarily, it is not lack of ventilation but radiation that heats up handguards. Reduce the target area, reduce the heat gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Primarily, it is not lack of ventilation but radiation that heats up handguards. Reduce the target area, reduce the heat gain. So a smaller handguard would stay cooler? Not sure if I get what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 What stage did it heat up on? I shot that match and I have the JP handgaurd, no issues for me. I do have the JP heat sick (John recommended it for IronMan) - not sure if it really helps.. does look cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Primarily, it is not lack of ventilation but radiation that heats up handguards. Reduce the target area, reduce the heat gain. So a smaller handguard would stay cooler? Not sure if I get what you mean. Radiation is a combination of source temperature, emissivity and view factor. Basically how hot is the barrel (source) and target (handguard) combined with the reflectance of the two materials and their angluar window to each other. In order to reduce radiation heat gain, you can 1) increase distance between source and target, 2) decrease source surface area, 3) decrease target surface area, 4) reduce source temperature or 5) inhibit radiation gain by coatings (or thermal mass) of the two surfaces. The JP heat sink does work. It makes the thermal mass of the barrel larger and the fins re-radiate to each other crating higher thermal losses (good). Holes in the handguard work because they reduce the target of the handguard from the barrel. Your skin/blood is a great thermal dissipator. We have tested the barrel temps with a variety of barrels and handguards and the base temperature of the barrel has no statistically significant variation between the various styles. Some powders, barrels and bullets produce higher temperatures however. Polygonally rifled barrels with fast powders and light bullets have the highest barrel temps. So to answer your question, a larger diameter handguard would be cooler, or a handguard with less surface area exposed to the barrel (holes) or a handguard with an inhibited inner coating, or a handguard with an inhibited barrel coating or heat sink (JP), than a "standard" configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_M Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 We also need to pay attention to how fast the handguard COOLS. Increase the diameter of the handguard and having holes cut in it will increase the energy convected from the handguard to the surrounding air. If you had a handguard that could convect a lot of heat away from it, then you could go longer before the handguard reached an uncomfortable temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_M Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm going to start selling 80mm computer fans hooked up to 9v batteries to fit on a M1913 rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwain C. Baer Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm going to start selling 80mm computer fans hooked up to 9v batteries to fit on a M1913 rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 What stage did it heat up on? I noticed it most on the stage where you had to crawl under the "barbed wire". I wore the gloves after that one. It was a fun match even thugh the spinners and polish plate racks kicked my butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I have a little contraption with a CO2 canister and a vibration switch that puffs at every shot...talk about Tacticool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm going to start selling 80mm computer fans hooked up to 9v batteries to fit on a M1913 rail. That's funny right there but you may be on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 So to answer your question, a larger diameter handguard would be cooler, or a handguard with less surface area exposed to the barrel (holes) or a handguard with an inhibited inner coating, or a handguard with an inhibited barrel coating or heat sink (JP), than a "standard" configuration. So why do carbon fiber handguards run cooler? Is it the thermal properties of the materiel? Do they really run cooler? Maybe I have gotten the wrong impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Absolutely THE BEST and THE CHEAPEST solution to your problem is to wrap the aluminum handguard with paracord. Here's how to paracord wrap your FF tube: 1) Obtain paracord of your chosen color. I recommend "real" 550 parachute cord, with white strands inside a colored outer sheath, rather than the braided stuff you get at WalMart. 2) Cut the paracord to length. For a plain-vanilla FF tube, you will need about 4 feet of paracord for every inch of tube you want to cover. Once cut, heat-seal the ends to prevent fraying. 3) Cut another length of paracord to approximately 18" long, fold in half, and then tie a knot with the loose ends to create a loop about 9" long. 4) Soak the longer length of paracord (from step 2) in water until its saturated, then shake off the excess water. 5) Starting with one cut end of the wet paracord near the middle of the FF tube, lay the paracord lengthwise along the tube towards the end you want to start wrapping. Now start wrapping the paracord around the tube, keeping things as tight as you can and working your way towards the opposite end. The wrapping will cover the first several inches you had initially layed lengthwise, thus preventing it from unravelling. 6) When you get within about 5" of the end, lay the 9" long loop of paracord lengthwise on the FF tube (knot towards the center of the FF tube), then continue wrapping the paracord so as to cover this loop. This loop needs to protrude about 2" at each end. 7) When you get to the end of the FF tube, insert the loose end of paracord through the protruding loop, and then pull on the opposite end of the loop so that the loose end of paracord is pulled under the wrapping. 8) Cut off any remaining loose ends of paracord, and heat seal. Once the paracord dries, it will tighten down nicely and prevent the wrapping from unravelling. The paracord wrapping on the rifles shown below was done several years ago, and has withstood hard 3-gun use with impunity. It still looks as good as it did the day I put it on. Of all the FF tubes I have ever handled, my paracord wrapping is by far the coolest to hold. I encourage you to try it and see what you are missing. You are welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Wrapping in para cord kinda negates the weight savings of a carbon fiber handguard doesn't it? The carbon fiber handguards, especially the carbon arms, are great for weight savings. For long strings of fire, they are not the best things, yet. Just like everything else in this game they will be improved on. I'm betting one with a whole mess of holes in it will help a lot. For me, for now, I'll stick with a firebird helix. But I will keep an eye on stuff from Carbon Arms and other little innovative companies out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I have the Carbon Arms guard and really like it. It does stay fairly cool even with long strings of fire, but if you shoot enough, it will heat up. One down side is that it doesnt have a way for heat to escape out the sides as it is a solid piece. I am contemplating the Helix guard for shiggles to see how I like it and how it compares. I really like the lack of weight on the front my my rifle as it is easier to move and easier to stop where i want it when swinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 So to answer your question, a larger diameter handguard would be cooler, or a handguard with less surface area exposed to the barrel (holes) or a handguard with an inhibited inner coating, or a handguard with an inhibited barrel coating or heat sink (JP), than a "standard" configuration. So why do carbon fiber handguards run cooler? Is it the thermal properties of the materiel? Do they really run cooler? Maybe I have gotten the wrong impression. It depends. Carbon Fiber is an insulator as compared to Aluminum which is a better heat conductor. Straight across, the carbon fiber tubes do stay cooler than aluminum tubes. If you start to compare aluminum tubes with holes in them to carbon fiber, at some point the carbon fiber might feel hotter after 45 to 60 rounds, or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Just like everything else in this game they will be improved on. I'm betting one with a whole mess of holes in it will help a lot. Yep, we have a couple of things we are testing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 How about a CF handguard with holes, but with an added heat reflective coating on the inside? Mick Just like everything else in this game they will be improved on. I'm betting one with a whole mess of holes in it will help a lot. Yep, we have a couple of things we are testing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Wrapping in para cord kinda negates the weight savings of a carbon fiber handguard doesn't it? I use paracord to wrap ALUMINUM handguards, which fiddler says he has today. Any added weight is trivial... probably less than the weight of a single .223 round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 The PRI carbon fiber handguards are vented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 The PRI carbon fiber handguards are vented. And still heavier than a Firebird Helix or JP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I run a JP and have never had an issue but then I did not shoot the Montana Multigun. I also wear a glove on my weak hand and it has never bothered me loading anything but that is just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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