9.9.3 - Activation of moving targets.

[spanky]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

When?

What's to stop me from finishing the COF then activating the disappearing target that I chose to bypass? I think this has probably been discussed before but I searched to no avail.

Edited August 24, 2011 by spanky

[centermass]

I think you may have answered your own question... if you choose to come back to the activator then that will be when you finish the COF. Only when RIC is declared is the COF finished, and at that point if you haven't activated the target you will receive the penalties mentioned.

[sperman]

There was a long discussion on this from one of last years section match. (Ohio, Indy?)

[sperman]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110665&st=0&p=1256207&hl=off%20the%20clock&fromsearch=1entry1256207

[Jay870]

As I understand it, it is perfectly legal to activate a moving target "off the clock" during a COF. In other words, fire your last shot, then activate the mover before you ULSC.

[aztecdriver]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

When?

What's to stop me from finishing the COF then activating the disappearing target that I chose to bypass? I think this has probably been discussed before but I searched to no avail.

Are you thinking about a NON-shooting type activation like a stomp pad or something of that nature vs. something that is going to make the clock jump?

[Poppa Bear]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

When?

What's to stop me from finishing the COF then activating the disappearing target that I chose to bypass? I think this has probably been discussed before but I searched to no avail.

There is nothing stopping you from doing that provided that you are not compelled to activate the target during the COF. If the activator is a popper then it is something different. 9.9.3 will come into play on that one unless you activate after the COF is over which then it would become a DQ under 10.5.1.

I have intentionally designed stages were you could avoid the procedural by performing the desired function after the last shot is fired. I have also designed stages where performing the desired function took several seconds. Which is has the higher HF? Moving the bag and shooting, or just shooting and taking the penalty?

[Stage 3]

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to

be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to

activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to

strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage

briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain

target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until

the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated.

[Jim Norman]

I am with the how did you not activate the disappearing target? If it requires a shot to do so you can't activate it after the COF is finished. If it requires some manual action on the part of the shooter and the designer left it so that you could get past the activator without activating it, then I personally feel this is a poor design. But to each their own.

Better yet is to make the activated target non-disappearing so that running by it is no longer an option. How well you shoot should be the primary reason for winning a match, how well you can twist the rules should be tertiary and way down the list from what ever the second item would be.

To my way of thinking, designing a COF where there are targets that it doesn't pay to shoot is poor design. No offense to those that do it, just my opinion.

[centermass]

I guess another point of clarification is the target "moving" or "disappearing".. or both? Your OP kinda changed gears between sentences. And as aztec stated, the type of activator makes a huge difference.

It does become very interesting if used in the right combination. Say a stomp activator (non-shooting)with a disappearing target... no penalties. Use a stomp with a pop-out stationary target, score would be 2M & FTE. Use of any popper or plate as activator and not doing so would be 1M & FTE for the popper, 2M & FTE for the paper target (if not disappearing).

Right?

[spanky]

A stomp box is the activator in question. Obviously you can't not activate a popper activated mover.

[Jim Norman]

A stomp box is the activator in question. Obviously you can't not activate a popper activated mover.

Actually you can. i have been to a match where you started seated and on the start signal you push over a popper that activates a whole slew of movers. There was no worry about calibration or the shot not overcoming the tension from the apparatus. You pushed, it fell and stuff happened.

[spanky]

The question comes from a discussion I had with a shooter after a major match where the shooter wwas told that they had to activate the mover before the last shot.

I didn't want to post immediately after the match as it'd have been fairly obvious which match I was referring to.

[Schutzenmeister]

A stomp box is the activator in question. Obviously you can't not activate a popper activated mover.

Actually you can. i have been to a match where you started seated and on the start signal you push over a popper that activates a whole slew of movers. There was no worry about calibration or the shot not overcoming the tension from the apparatus. You pushed, it fell and stuff happened.

Gee Jim ... Dosen't that depend on whether or not the SHOOTER is of Major or minor caliber? How fast would YOU have to go over the chrono to make PF? (I bet I can still make it slower than you!)

[spanky]

A stomp box is the activator in question. Obviously you can't not activate a popper activated mover.

Actually you can. i have been to a match where you started seated and on the start signal you push over a popper that activates a whole slew of movers. There was no worry about calibration or the shot not overcoming the tension from the apparatus. You pushed, it fell and stuff happened.

That's what I get for only thinking inside the box. You're absolutely correct. But we are still talking about manual manipulation versus fired shot. The question remains unvaried.

[Jim Norman]

Agreed

[Poppa Bear]

The only thing I could possibly point to would be:

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

If the designer does not compel you to activate the disappearing target on your way by then a level I exemption in the WSB stating that you need to activate prior to the last shot is the only way to compel the shooter. The penalty would be one procedural so it would be up to the shooter to determine if enough time would be saved to make it worth while.

I myself would try to set the target up so that it remained available from an early position after activation. That way it is not disappearing and full penalties would apply.

[spanky]

This was a major match.

[Joe4d]

The only thing that would prevent you would be something in the WSB

[Skydiver]

The only thing that would prevent you would be something in the WSB

+1

[EkuJustice]

We had one at a local match that was intended to be shot on one side of the barrier, run around the barrier and step on an activator to activate 2 targets(which you could see from the first area unactivated. We had the cleaver idea on the squad to nail them stationary, run straigt out of bounce and back in on the other side(avoiding the treck around the barrier) and hit the activator coming back in.

[spanky]

The only thing that would prevent you would be something in the WSB

Can a WSB legally tell you that you must activate a disappearing target before the last shot is fired?

[Poppa Bear]

Only with a level I exemption. Level II and up you cannot place those type of restrictions into the WSB. You have to compel through design.

[Skydiver]

Only with a level I exemption. Level II and up you cannot place those type of restrictions into the WSB. You have to compel through design.

I must have missed something. What rule?

Basically, I'm in a quandry as to why in a level II match, I can say in the WSB: "the competitor must carry the bucket from point A to point B before the last shot is fired", but I can't say "the competitor must activate T5 by using pressure pad before the last shot is fired"?

Yes, I agree that it would be infinitely better if the stage designed compelled the shooter so that there would be less stuff in the WSB... eg. what is required of the shooter is self evident, but I thought there was enough leeway in the rules to have a "before last shot is fired" restriction.

[chbrow10]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement.

When?

What's to stop me from finishing the COF then activating

the disappearing target that I chose to bypass? I think this has probably been discussed before but I searched to no avail.

Spanky, I'm pretty sure that there is nothing stopping you from activating that after you are done shooting. I want to say that we discussed this very topic at my RO class.