Stop the shooter, or let them DQ themselves

[sperman]

We had a stage at a match yesterday that had a couple of steel plates. The WSB stated the plates had to be engaged before going past a pair of walls. (Yes, I know this very poor stage design.) The shooter was several steps forward of the walls in question, and about to engage one of the plates. If he shot at the plate from that position, he would be too close and would be DQ'd. As the RO, do you stop the shooter or do you let him engage the plate and DQ himself?

[beltjones]

Publicly I'll say this: Never! Let the shooter DQ himself. It's a valuable learning experience, and not stopping the shooter means not awarding a reshoot, which makes it more fair for the rest of the competitors. Also, what about the slippery slope? If shooters know they will get stopped by acting like they might engage a piece of steel from too close they will use that knowledge to game the system - especially when they're already having a bad stage.

However in real life, especially at a local match, I think safety trumps all. I say stop him, let some people possibly grumble, and reduce the chance that you or he gets fragged by a piece of lead coming off a steel target that is only a short distance away.

[mikeg1005]

Publicly I'll say this: Never! Let the shooter DQ himself. It's a valuable learning experience, and not stopping the shooter means not awarding a reshoot, which makes it more fair for the rest of the competitors. Also, what about the slippery slope? If shooters know they will get stopped by acting like they might engage a piece of steel from too close they will use that knowledge to game the system - especially when they're already having a bad stage.

However in real life, especially at a local match, I think safety trumps all. I say stop him, let some people possibly grumble, and reduce the chance that you or he gets fragged by a piece of lead coming off a steel target that is only a short distance away.

The way I see it... The rulebook is out to protect shooters, not get the DQ'ed.

I don't think your "gaming the stage and intentionally passing the walls" is a very realistic fact. Why you ask? Here is my opinion.

I have NEVER seen a good shooter do something with the intent to get a reshoot... Having bad stage = don't make that mistake again... risking even a bigger screw-up/ or worse getting DQ'ed = not good.

You have no certainty the RO will say stop... he might not notice, or he might wait for you to get DQ'ed... are you honestly going to risk that? Running past the shooting position and gambling if the RO will say stop? Or are you just going to shoot it and go on?

With that rule... If I was RO'ing... I'd probably yell stop if I honestly thought the shooter was going to shoot the target... ya you won't DQ the shooter but you will keep him AND YOURSELF safe because if he is next to the steel chances are you are next to him = in the way of shrapnel as well.

In the end... poor stage design is not the users or RO's fault... I have been to local matches were we as shooters on the first squad called the match director and said "hey, ya this is cool, but its not safe in any way and moving it would not give anyone any advantage."

Last one I remember was it was raining, muddy and there was a fault line in a mud hole that required you to go right along the 180* to lean around a wall to shoot 1 target... Its like... ok...we see what you are doing here, makign it more difficult but this is a local match with new shooters and its RAINING and MUDDY... lets move the fault line back 1 foot so people aren't as likely to slip and fall and point the gun at all of us.

MIke.

Edited August 22, 2011 by mikeg1005

[Schutzenmeister]

Have you considered the provisions of 8.6.1?

[lcs]

We had a stage at a match yesterday that had a couple of steel plates. The WSB stated the plates had to be engaged before going past a pair of walls. (Yes, I know this very poor stage design.) The shooter was several steps forward of the walls in question, and about to engage one of the plates. If he shot at the plate from that position, he would be too close and would be DQ'd. As the RO, do you stop the shooter or do you let him engage the plate and DQ himself?

You can't DQ a shooter for "about to break the 180", you can't DQ a shooter for what you think he is going to do. What if you DQ him and he says "I realized I was over the line and was about to backup" , being over the line is not a DQ in of itself.

If you did stop him---explain why and give him a re-shoot.

[LT45]

Obviously this was an accident waiting to happen situation, particularly with newer shooters.

Certainly,no one needs to get hurt. I would probably stop the shooter then address the problem with the stage.

If time didn't allow to correct the problem, I would toss the stage out for safety reasons.

If you can fix it safely, then require re-shoots for those that had already shot the stage.

[lcs]

Have you considered the provisions of 8.6.1?

Excellent point!

[D.Hayden]

Have you considered the provisions of 8.6.1?

Isn't this a safety issue? That's why the distance rule is there

Adding:

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

Edited August 22, 2011 by D.Hayden

[aztecdriver]

Obviously this was an accident waiting to happen situation, particularly with newer shooters.

Certainly,no one needs to get hurt. I would probably stop the shooter then address the problem with the stage.

If time didn't allow to correct the problem, I would toss the stage out for safety reasons.

If you can fix it safely, then require re-shoots for those that had already shot the stage.

+1 this. I can appreciate the safety warnings aspect. But that's not enough. The only thing that's going to come out of my mouth at that point is "stop" to keep him from shooting the plate. Anything else is going to confuse a new shooter - and the last thing I want is an amped up newbie with an handgun turning his head to me to figure out what I just said.

"Hey don't shoot from there, back up" - "NO BACKUP" what is the appropriate safety warning to keep someone safe here.. I don't believe there is one

[LPatterson]

In this instance, I would have to let the shooter take a shot because until he does he has not broken any rule. Yes the WSB says not to take a shot beyond a certain point but until that shot is fired he can always back up. A warning could be issued per 8.6.1 but sometimes that causes shooters to do stupid things like turning around to see what you were yelling about. How many times have you driven down a busy street and watched the driver ahead turn to the occupant so they could talk to them or even listen to what they were saying. An RO's primary job is safety on the range but not to try to regulate stupidity. Would you stop a shooter doing a reload with the muzzle pointed over the berm, in some places YES but not at my home range. They is a modicum of common sense required to be an RO because 1.1.5 deals with freestyle.

[Joe4d]

Kinda hard to DQ a shooter that he wouldnt have done on a legal stage,

2.1.3 precautions must be taken so that competitors

and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them

while they are being shot.

Must is the key word, looks like no precautions were taken. I understand the rest of the rule to mean physical barriers are preferrd but if not use a fault line, this stage had neither, so I say bad stage, take two minutes to nail a 2X4 down.

But otherwise 8.6.1 would apply, the same as a shooter on the way to 179 degrees, calling out muzzle, no reshoot. You'd have to think fast to say something other than STOP though.

[wide45]

Dude, If you can prevent an unsafe action, you do it.

Safety before competition, everytime.

[The Antichrome]

8.6.1 could be used.

I'm stopping them if I feel that it's about to get dangerous...especially if it's about to get dangerous for me.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

A stitch in time, saves nine.

[Nik Habicht]

I'll come down on the side of preventing (potential) injury, especially if stage design/build have allowed for this to occur.....

[sperman]

As you guys know, when something like this comes up, you have fractions of a second to make your decision. Here's the thought process that wen't through my mind:

1. Warn shooter to back up. That would be considered coaching. Can't do that.

2. Let him take the shot. We're both within 23 feet of the steel. Not safe for him or me.

3. Stop him before he takes the shot and give him a reshoot.

I'm glad I started this thread. I had forgotten that 8.6.1 allowed safety warnings to be issued. That's probably what I will do in the future.

Having said that, as an RO I've programmed myself so that if I'm ever unsure what is the proper action, I'm going to yell "Stop" and figure it out once range is clear. The worst case scenario is the shooter get's a re-shoot. That might not always be fair to the shooter or his competition, but given the potential alternatives it's a choice I'm willing to live with.

[D.Hayden]

1. Warn shooter to back up. That would be considered coaching. Can't do that.

I don't think this is coaching.. it's a safety issue.. and as I read 8.6.1 it's ok - warn them, and they stay on the clock. I'm sure they'd appreciate it, vs being DQ'd. It's never going to be 100% for all circumstances.

How you word it, might be debated.. my 1 cent

[Pat Miles]

I would toss the stage out for safety reasons.

Why would you toss the stage? The shooter has moved past the the location that the WSB said not to shoot the plates from. The stage is safe if the shooters follow the WSB but this shooter did not. How does this make the stage a poor one? Any stage can be turned into an unsafe one if the shooters ignore the WSB and the rules. From the OP's description of the stage I fail to see how it was bad stage design.

Yeah, there is obviously a safety concern with the shooter "several steps forward of the walls in question". No you can't stop or DQ a shooter for something he might do but you can yell "don't shoot the plates", then if he does, stop him and issue the earned DQ with an explanation. In my opinion, you have not coached the shooter but warned him not to take an unsafe action that you think he is about to take.

Pat

[aztecdriver]

I would toss the stage out for safety reasons.

Why would you toss the stage? The shooter has moved past the the location that the WSB said not to shoot the plates from. The stage is safe if the shooters follow the WSB but this shooter did not. How does this make the stage a poor one? Any stage can be turned into an unsafe one if the shooters ignore the WSB and the rules. From the OP's description of the stage I fail to see how it was bad stage design.

Yeah, there is obviously a safety concern with the shooter "several steps forward of the walls in question". No you can't stop or DQ a shooter for something he might do but you can yell "don't shoot the plates", then if he does, stop him and issue the earned DQ with an explanation. In my opinion, you have not coached the shooter but warned him not to take an unsafe action that you think he is about to take.

Pat

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23 feet minimum distance (see Rule 10.5.17). Care should also be taken in respect of metal props in the line of fire.

In this situation, precautions weren't taken. So therefore the stage can be tossed for violating 2.1.3.

[Schutzenmeister]

In this situation, precautions weren't taken. So therefore the stage can be tossed for violating 2.1.3.

Sorry Aztec ... but wrong. You FIX the stage (if possible) and have any shooters reshoot (if necessary) per 2.3.3.

Too many folks seem to think the solution to a minor problem with a stage is to toss it. Try fixing it first. Only if it can't be fixed, or the reshoots would back the match up unacceptably should you toss it.

[aztecdriver]

In this situation, precautions weren't taken. So therefore the stage can be tossed for violating 2.1.3.

Sorry Aztec ... but wrong. You FIX the stage (if possible) and have any shooters reshoot (if necessary) per 2.3.3.

Too many folks seem to think the solution to a minor problem with a stage is to toss it. Try fixing it first. Only if it can't be fixed, or the reshoots would back the match up unacceptably should you toss it.

Sorry, SCHUTZ, I jumped a step - mainly because I have yet to see 2.3.3 used effectively to fix a stage with reshooting. Almost everytime, the stage is removed because the reshoots become impractical to impossible. Maybe it shouldn't be - but my default mindset is that if the stage needs to be changed, other than after the 1st or maybe 2nd squad of a match, it's gone.

My point was, it must be fixed. It violates 2.1.3. If the fix is a change in the course - 90% chance of a toss - does that work for you? Question, Not a lot of FA experience - can you legitimately fix it with a forbidden action or must it be construction. Don't crucify the messenger - I'm here to learn. I don't know FA enough as I should.

[Joe4d]

Ideally like the rules say a barrier should be used, but the rule says, "Precautions MUST be taken" without spelling them out, a 2X2 on the ground would be a simple fix like I stated earlier but now thinking about it, If the WSB specifically states, "dont shoot the steel after going through the doorway" or the RO verbally says the same, and the doorway is a pretty noticable object, Id say Precautions have been taken.

"Backup" would be a safety warning and and no reshoot if shooter didnt shoot. If he did DQ. If you could only get out a "stop" before he shoots then he gets a reshoot.

[Poppa Bear]

Fix it by dropping a barrier in place. As part of the stage briefing notify shooters that this barrier is placed to mark the safe shooting distance for the steel. Pass that mark and shoot the steel get a DQ. Place the steel far enough away from the door that stepping through will not DQ you but passing the barrier 3 feet in front of the door will.

As part of the WSB tell the shooters they must engage prior to passing through the door. That way they can be hit with a procedural if they pass the door but do not pass the safety limit.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[Schutzenmeister]

In this situation, precautions weren't taken. So therefore the stage can be tossed for violating 2.1.3.

Sorry Aztec ... but wrong. You FIX the stage (if possible) and have any shooters reshoot (if necessary) per 2.3.3.

Too many folks seem to think the solution to a minor problem with a stage is to toss it. Try fixing it first. Only if it can't be fixed, or the reshoots would back the match up unacceptably should you toss it.

Sorry, SCHUTZ, I jumped a step - mainly because I have yet to see 2.3.3 used effectively to fix a stage with reshooting. Almost everytime, the stage is removed because the reshoots become impractical to impossible. Maybe it shouldn't be - but my default mindset is that if the stage needs to be changed, other than after the 1st or maybe 2nd squad of a match, it's gone.

My point was, it must be fixed. It violates 2.1.3. If the fix is a change in the course - 90% chance of a toss - does that work for you? Question, Not a lot of FA experience - can you legitimately fix it with a forbidden action or must it be construction. Don't crucify the messenger - I'm here to learn. I don't know FA enough as I should.

Concur ... Based on descriptions, it must be fixed or tossed. Not having been there to see it, or having any pictures or diagrams to go on, I'm only guessing here ... But frequently setting up a physical barrier - could be most anything tall enough to get the shooter's attention (say 2' or higher) but low enough for all to see over - will generally remedy the problem with shooters approaching steel too closely. Remember - The barrier MUST be at least 23' from the steel.

If this were the ONLY modification and it really didn't affect anyone elses attempt at the CoF, as your RM I would most likely rule that the only shooter who needed to reshoot the CoF would be the one who caused the problem and was stopped. (2.3.3.1) Everyone else could probably proceed with this modification in place as (and as I said, I haven't seen the actual CoF to make a determination) there is no change in competitive equity for the stage.

I would NOT use the FA provisions unless I had no other choice ... I strongly suspect this CoF could be salvaged with just a minor little safety modification. Tossing a stage may be the only viable answer. Personally, I prefer not to do this until after I have considered all reasonable alternatives and/or modifications in an effort to salvage it.

[aztecdriver]

In this situation, precautions weren't taken. So therefore the stage can be tossed for violating 2.1.3.

Sorry Aztec ... but wrong. You FIX the stage (if possible) and have any shooters reshoot (if necessary) per 2.3.3.

Too many folks seem to think the solution to a minor problem with a stage is to toss it. Try fixing it first. Only if it can't be fixed, or the reshoots would back the match up unacceptably should you toss it.

Sorry, SCHUTZ, I jumped a step - mainly because I have yet to see 2.3.3 used effectively to fix a stage with reshooting. Almost everytime, the stage is removed because the reshoots become impractical to impossible. Maybe it shouldn't be - but my default mindset is that if the stage needs to be changed, other than after the 1st or maybe 2nd squad of a match, it's gone.

My point was, it must be fixed. It violates 2.1.3. If the fix is a change in the course - 90% chance of a toss - does that work for you? Question, Not a lot of FA experience - can you legitimately fix it with a forbidden action or must it be construction. Don't crucify the messenger - I'm here to learn. I don't know FA enough as I should.

Concur ... Based on descriptions, it must be fixed or tossed. Not having been there to see it, or having any pictures or diagrams to go on, I'm only guessing here ... But frequently setting up a physical barrier - could be most anything tall enough to get the shooter's attention (say 2' or higher) but low enough for all to see over - will generally remedy the problem with shooters approaching steel too closely. Remember - The barrier MUST be at least 23' from the steel.

If this were the ONLY modification and it really didn't affect anyone elses attempt at the CoF, as your RM I would most likely rule that the only shooter who needed to reshoot the CoF would be the one who caused the problem and was stopped. (2.3.3.1) Everyone else could probably proceed with this modification in place as (and as I said, I haven't seen the actual CoF to make a determination) there is no change in competitive equity for the stage.

I would NOT use the FA provisions unless I had no other choice ... I strongly suspect this CoF could be salvaged with just a minor little safety modification. Tossing a stage may be the only viable answer. Personally, I prefer not to do this until after I have considered all reasonable alternatives and/or modifications in an effort to salvage it.

Now we're on exactly the same page... I needed the reminder that 2.3.3.1 can do that and it's not just automatically CHANGE-> RESHOOT.

[ima45dv8]

Adding a 2x4 or other designator likely wouldn't have corrected the problem.

From Scott's opening post (check me here, Scott), the shooter was told to engage the steel before passing two walls. Those walls were only vision barriers. They did not limit the shooter's movement downrange. The had to pass those walls to engage remaining targets, and were simply told by the WSB not to shoot the steel from that portion of the CoF that was further downrange of those walls. That's inviting a shooter to take an unsafe shot from a perfectly available free-fire portion of the CoF.

I didn't see this stage, but have seen similar issues before. We've usually been lucky to be able to place a couple of barrels, or no-shoots, or a wall (I know these guys are short on props so one may not have been available) and prevent engagement from inside the "steel safety zones". We shouldn't entice shooters to take unsafe shots.

**Mike -- LT45 is a GM at stage design and construction. Trust me, he would work like a dog to save the stage. His first thought wouldn't be to toss it.