JKD Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwain C. Baer Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? Most clubs in the United States will host USPSA matches primarily, but a few clubs have hosted IPSC matches periodically. And when there are IPSC matches, all rules will be strictly enforced as per IPSC mandate. I haven't memorized all of the IPSC rules, but they are different than USPSA. Actually, the IPSC rules might be available on the USPSA website...but I'm not 100% certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? Production Division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? Production Division And IPSC rules can be downloaded here: http://ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf Some notable differences: - Nothing in hands during walkthrough. - Production round limit is 15. - In Production, first shot MUST be double action if it's a loaded gun start. - Production mods are even more restrictive than USPSA: only OFM parts, no refinishing allowed. - If you have gear in front of the hipbone, the RO can first instruct you to fix it and not have the RM automatically bump you to Open. - For table starts, after the start signal you can place mags anywhere. (eg. They don't have to be behind the hipbone.) - Major is 170 PF. .357 is an acceptable caliber for major. - No loaded sight pictures. - Unloaded sight picture allowed only on one target. - A WSB may also stipulate no unloaded sight pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 - For table starts, after the start signal you can place mags anywhere. (eg. They don't have to be behind the hipbone.) true for USPSA also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) - For table starts, after the start signal you can place mags anywhere. (eg. They don't have to be behind the hipbone.) true for USPSA also. True for the 2004 USPSA rules, but the 2008 rules changed and there was a further NROI ruling that clarified it some more... http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=48 So mags have to be in hands, or behind the hipbone for USPSA (for divisions that stipulate it). On the upside of the 2008 change, you can grab mags out of your pocket first in USPSA if you wish. No need to exhaust the pouches before going for pockets. Edited August 17, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 - For table starts, after the start signal you can place mags anywhere. (eg. They don't have to be behind the hipbone.) true for USPSA also. True for the 2004 USPSA rules, but the 2008 rules changed and there was a further NROI ruling that clarified it some more... http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=48 So mags have to be in hands, or behind the hipbone for USPSA. On the upside of the 2008 change, you can grab mags out of your pocket first in USPSA if you wish. No need to exhaust the pouches before going for pockets. Can you clarify this comment? (Specifically how 8.2.3 applies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demax Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? G34 is OK for IPSC Standard division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 - For table starts, after the start signal you can place mags anywhere. (eg. They don't have to be behind the hipbone.) true for USPSA also. True for the 2004 USPSA rules, but the 2008 rules changed and there was a further NROI ruling that clarified it some more... http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=48 So mags have to be in hands, or behind the hipbone for USPSA. On the upside of the 2008 change, you can grab mags out of your pocket first in USPSA if you wish. No need to exhaust the pouches before going for pockets. Can you clarify this comment? (Specifically how 8.2.3 applies) Mags have to be in hands or behind the hip bone after the start signal is what he meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 - For table starts, after the start signal you can place mags anywhere. (eg. They don't have to be behind the hipbone.) true for USPSA also. Correct, except for Production and Single Stack division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 True for the 2004 USPSA rules, but the 2008 rules changed and there was a further NROI ruling that clarified it some more... http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=48 So mags have to be in hands, or behind the hipbone for USPSA (for divisions that stipulate it). The NROI ruling only addresses the location BEFORE the start position: Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Can you clarify this comment? (Specifically how 8.2.3 applies) He means after the start signal, you pick up the mag in your hand, not start with mag in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) Right. 5.2.4 says it has to start in the pouches. Hands are not applicable to D4/5.12. Furthermore D4/5.12 does not say when the restriction is applicable other than the understood (which is always). Thus your mags have to be either in your hands or behind the hip bones after the start signal after a table start with mags on the table. Edited August 17, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 True for the 2004 USPSA rules, but the 2008 rules changed and there was a further NROI ruling that clarified it some more... http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=48 So mags have to be in hands, or behind the hipbone for USPSA (for divisions that stipulate it). The NROI ruling only addresses the location BEFORE the start position: Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12. The last sentence of the ruling is what is interesting. It was meant to answer the question whether is it legal for a Production or Single Stack shooter to go run around a course of fire with mags in his hands, his mouth, under an armpit, or stuffed in the front waist band of his pants. The ruling says it's only legal to have the mags in hand, otherwise the position restrictions still apply. The IPSC 5.2.4.1 is unambigious. After the start signal no restrictions on placement. IPSC 5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules. The USPSA 5.2.4 still has restriction after the start signal: USPSA 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speedloading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). (Mods: Consider moving this thread to the Rules forum, perhaps?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (Mods: Consider moving this thread to the Rules forum, perhaps?) I was coming back here to do just that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'll say this. Before it was broken with the Oct 2010 upgrade of the uspsa.org website, there were only about (I seem to recall) 130 IPSC classifications TOTAL listed in the monthly update to ezwinscore. It's been broken since then and it's Aug 2011 now. There just is no clamoring demand for pure IPSC matches in any of the 8 USPSA areas. That's not to say don't run one. If you want to, by all means have at. But no one's really beating down our doors for it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? Your questions on the G34 and some rules issues have already been addressed ... USPSA is the US Region of IPSC. There are no "IPSC" clubs per se anywhere in the world. All are clubs within their own region (e.g., Germany, France, Austrailia, etc.) and that region is a member of IPSC. To my knowledge, the US is the only region with it's own set of wholey independent rules ... though the USPSA rules largely parallel the IPSC rules in most respects. As has been previously stated, there does not seem to be a great groundswell of demand here in the US for purely IPSC matches. Some of that, I believe, is due to the minor rules differences, but most of it is probably due to the differences in equipment and division specifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck223 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? Your questions on the G34 and some rules issues have already been addressed ... USPSA is the US Region of IPSC. There are no "IPSC" clubs per se anywhere in the world. All are clubs within their own region (e.g., Germany, France, Austrailia, etc.) and that region is a member of IPSC. To my knowledge, the US is the only region with it's own set of wholey independent rules ... though the USPSA rules largely parallel the IPSC rules in most respects. As has been previously stated, there does not seem to be a great groundswell of demand here in the US for purely IPSC matches. Some of that, I believe, is due to the minor rules differences, but most of it is probably due to the differences in equipment and division specifications. The only reason I can imagine USPSA members wanting to shoot and hold IPSC matches is for classification for the World Shoot. For the many thousands of USPSA members who look forward to shooting outside the US, I'm sure it's important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? To answer, what I believe to be your question... If you are in the USA...you will be shooting USPSA, not IPSC. Your G34 is perfectly fine and dandy for Production division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKD Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Ok, this may be a total noob question: Are there any actual IPSC clubs in the United States? Or is everything in the U.S considered USPSA? I have a Glock G34 for shooting in USPSA production class. As I understand it, the G34 is legal in USPSA but not in IPSC. Are there any clubs in the U.S. that are IPSC and would not allow the G34 in Production? To answer, what I believe to be your question... If you are in the USA...you will be shooting USPSA, not IPSC. Your G34 is perfectly fine and dandy for Production division. Haha! Thanks Flexmoney! I wasn't prepared for this thread to turn into a rules education! Mainly, I just wanted to know how likely it would be for me to encounter an "IPSC" sanctioned match in the United States. Sounds like it's not very likely at all. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The only reason I can imagine USPSA members wanting to shoot and hold IPSC matches is for classification for the World Shoot. For the many thousands of USPSA members who look forward to shooting outside the US, I'm sure it's important. Many THOUSANDS????? there are only about 20 k of us actively shooting in the US. How many thousands of us actually travel to a match outside the US? As an IPSC region we are supposed to hold an IPSC rules match. There are a couple clubs that will on occasion hold such a match. Other than that I doubt you'll see any regular IPSC matches being held here. If there was a snowball's chance that we'd see a World Shoot here, you might see more interest in IPSC Rules Matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The only reason I can imagine USPSA members wanting to shoot and hold IPSC matches is for classification for the World Shoot. For the many thousands of USPSA members who look forward to shooting outside the US, I'm sure it's important. Many THOUSANDS????? there are only about 20 k of us actively shooting in the US. How many thousands of us actually travel to a match outside the US? As an IPSC region we are supposed to hold an IPSC rules match. There are a couple clubs that will on occasion hold such a match. Other than that I doubt you'll see any regular IPSC matches being held here. If there was a snowball's chance that we'd see a World Shoot here, you might see more interest in IPSC Rules Matches. I think maybe your sarcasm detector needs to be brought in for calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Probably true, it rarely works until after 8am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Haha! Thanks Flexmoney! I wasn't prepared for this thread to turn into a rules education! Mainly, I just wanted to know how likely it would be for me to encounter an "IPSC" sanctioned match in the United States. Sounds like it's not very likely at all. Thanks! You are just about as likely to get a $2 bill as change, than you are to run into an IPSC match in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 As an IPSC region we are supposed to hold an IPSC rules match. There are a couple clubs that will on occasion hold such a match. Other than that I doubt you'll see any regular IPSC matches being held here. If there was a snowball's chance that we'd see a World Shoot here, you might see more interest in IPSC Rules Matches. Jim We put in a bid for it just about every time ... So far, we keep getting undercut. I think it will happen ... It's just a question of when. Maybe 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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