Nationals Suggestion Box

[sfinney]

1) I agree, Rotate through the Areas..... and as Limited and Open are the biggest draws, I agree you should split them, have a Open /Prod - Lim / Lim10 split of the two matches...... (put revolver where ever you want to balance the numbers)

But it could be better than every two years.... instead of 1 or 2 big matches in the same spot every year, you hold each of these Natonals every year, but in different Areas..... If the Open/Prod Nats was on the West Coast, paln the othe rmatch on the East, etc.

That way not only would you be rotating through all of the Areas / sides of the country, there would two per year, in different places - odds are that one will work for your schedule and travel ability.

2) Say that you don't get enough attendance when when we have multiple Nats each year? Drop or modify the "slot" system...... the Nats should be an opportunity for everyone in the IPSC shooting sport to show up and have an almost "convention" atmosphere.... by limiting attendance, you over complicate peoples vacation and travel schedules to where many people who would go with a years notice, now don't want to hassle with the uncertaintity of our current process. For many, finding out if you have a slot in May, is way to late for planning to attend a match in Sept. Many other shooting disciplines have unlimited matches with many hundreds or thousands of people..... I feel that if you opened each Nat to general attendance, no slots, AND mad e them more geographicaly friendly to all the Areas, it would fill 'em up.

If you can't have a "wide open" match, and you absolutely have to have a limit to attendance, then announce the match 1 year in advance, start taking apps right then..... as the match fills, the only remaining "slots" that were held off the top (a small percent - 10 - 20%?) are handed out to class winners from the respective Area Matches. Didn't preregister in time before the match filled up, or win your class at an Area match? Better luck next year!

Of course, Match Sponsors would get a slot for signing up and supporting the match as well ( a variable scale - small sponsor = 1 slot , medium =2, etc.)

Just an idea.

[George]

I agree with Chris & Kevin. Kill the prize tables. It just adds to the work load without any real ROI for the shooters (yeah, I really need two lbs of powder I have never used, or a new pistol rug, or a caspian frame when I shoot a Glock). It's basically a grab bag and I think grab bags are for kids.

It also creates more sandbaggers and we don't need anymore of those. (I'm a grandbagger and am working towards being way over my head ASAP )

Take the time to get companies to sponsor the match with cash, or raffle the products they offer to make cash by making sure that only higher end products like complete guns, AR uppers and such are solicited. I know it's easier to get product than cash, but that doesn't mean that bags of 100 bullets are worthwhile items to go after when soliciting donations.

All the little stuff companies donate like the lubes and sample packs and 1 lb jugs of powder that litter the low end of prize tables are what should be in the shooter handout bags, or should be spread out for the shooters to grab one of by choice at registration and not just literature (a gift if you will).

If it ain't cash, or it ain't something I was going to buy already (how would the match organizers know what that is anyway?), I don't want it off of a prize table.

I know the big dogs use the guns and such to defray expenses (as income even), but the average shooter really doesn't need a new set of cheap hearing protectors as his token prize for his hard earned match placement.

Just give out some cash at the top end (top 16, 20, 25 or whatever it needs to be) and make it trophies from there on out. This will save the winners the hassle of finding a local buyer at a blowout price for all the guns that they get off prize tables and give them what they want anyway, CASH!

It doesn't have to be a lot of cash at the top either if you do that. A hundred dollar bill will always make someone smile and the raffled stuff generates the cash used here.

There is an old saying that goes something like this "Contrary to what the greeting card manufacturers have been saying for years, CASH says it best"

Kill the prize table, maybe pay the winners a little cash (maybe not) and get on with the shooting. It's what most are there for, not the prizes

--

Regards,

Edited May 16, 2004 by George

[kimel]

Good idea Brian! There really isn't any good reason this can't be done. Going back up the thread to Tightloop's suggestion of bidding these out several years in advance there really is no reason to not know years and years out.

Scheduling and placement cannot be left up to the president as it appears to be now. That isn't fair to the president and it isn't fair to the membership. It is far too easy to think that a single person has some "under the table" deal going which drives when/where a National is held. If this is done by a committee and done above board we are all much better off.

I also am in favor of the idea of killing off the slots schema. UNTIL we have an attendance problem with too many people this whole idea needs to be tabled. How many people don't even bother to try and get a slot because they think they are unattainable?

The other advantage to knowing when/where far in advance is that we can work this into our vacation plans. If I know, for instance, that the 2005 Nationals is at Frank's place in Florida in November and I know I can go shoot there (no slots...remember?) then I can make my plans far in advance. Work things out so the whole family can go along and the match is just one stop on the trip. I can usually get time off when I need it except for a few months out of the year. However, if I know far in advance then I can get time off during the blackout periods. But if I tried to get time off in July/August/September right now? Forget it! I suspect that many other folks are in the same boat.

There is no reason to have slots when we don't fill them all. Throw open applications for the next year the Monday following the previous Nats (maybe even start taking them AT this year's match). Then the application fee goes up on a sliding scale as match time gets closer. Say $200 a year out, $250 six months out, $300 3 months out and $400 a month out. After a year or two of running this way it will be pretty simple to predict the total match turnout. And yes, you can have an upper limit where you go on the waiting list. This method works elsewhere in our sport and in many other sports.

As I said before...Vendors can sponsor things. Hospitality tents, dinners, whatever. Grab bags should be things that can easily be taken home. If I am flying am I really gonna want to pack several lbs of powder or a sleeve of primers in my luggage? Uhhh...I don't think so. If VV or Hodgdon or whomever wants to give me powder then give me a certificate worth a lb of powder at my local store.

If I go to the SVI tent and have a great time with some good food and good music I will remember this as will the hundreds of others that went to the SVI tent. If TGO/Todd/Matt/Phil wins another SVI gun will I remember that or even care? Nope...unless they autograph it and hand it to me later because I am such a nice guy. Yeah...that will happen.

I like the raffling off the guns idea. Use that as a fundraiser for the match, to increase the pot for the top winners and/or to support local charities or RKBA groups.

Class winners get a trophy/plaque and a non-transferrable voucher for all or part of next year's National entry fee. Say 100% for 1st, 70% for 2nd and 50% for 3rd in class. The class winner probably isn't going to be in that class next year anyway but let's help them come back.

Kevin

[Paul B]

I've mentioned this before in another venue, but it might make some sense if the Nationals are to move out of Barry.

Instead of looking for the 1 mega range that can run 24stages, maybe we should be looking for a cluster of clubs in a given geographic section. A lot of major cities have several gun clubs running 5 or 6 stage matches. Split the 24 stages into 4 clubs with maybe one "home" location for the sponsors tents. This would spread not only the work but the glory and could involve the local Chambers of Commerce in promoting their area. With thousands of visitors it might be worth some promotional money.

I've heard a few objections like the stats would be a nightmare, but with the internet and a phone line I cannot believe it would be a problem.

On the plus side is easier transportation, more hotels to choose from and more activities of all types. Additionally volunteer labor would be more plentiful. Also the clubs would probably have to do a lot less modifications to their facility than trying to build new pits for a potential one time nationals bid.

Some of the areas that might work would be Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Louisville, Orlando, Atlanta, Detroit, etc. Maybe the section heads could bring in a lot more suggestions.

Just a thought.

[JWK]

This will be my first Nationals so I have nothing to offer in the form of suggestions for

improvement. My match experience is limited to 3 Florida Opens, 2 Area 6's, 1 Georiga State,

1 Florida State and 1 Alabama State. I participate as a shooter and vendor.

As a shooter I appreciate low cost amenities like iced water on every stage, shade, and enough

table space for my gear and people pasteing targets so shooters don't have to. I appreciate

not having to walk a mile when the urge to purge hits me. I like safety areas on every other stage to clean and check out my gun. I like GOOD food served on the range like brauts with

peppers and onions and gyros. If all of the foregoing is available I am a happy shooter.

[kimel]

That's a pretty neat idea Paul. There are golf and tennis tourneys that run this way and they seem to be able to do it.

If Nationals ever went to an electronic scoring method (Palms or whatever) then stats becomes a zero challenge thing.

And if there were shuttle vans running between the major hotels and the match venues the transportation part of the nightmare is taken care of as well.

I have suggested elsewhere that USPSA should run shuttle vans between the airport and the major hotels and match location. This is especially useful where the match city is removed from the major airport (ie: Barry and St. Louis). This doesn't have to be a free shuttle but if it helps people make the trip because they don't have to shell out for a rental car, fight traffic in unfamilar places, etc. then so much the better.

And this year with gas headed north of the $2.20/gal price ($2.28 here today for unleaded regular) "we" need to help people find ways to economize and therefore afford to make the trip.

[TRNinTX]

Kimel,

I have been advocating your ideas about sponsors to our AD for the last year. My wife and I have been responsible for running golf tournaments for a major organization for many years and this is how we beat on sponsors.

Let everyone enjoy the vendors money. A lot more people will remember a huge BBQ dinner under a tent at the range or the water bottles with Springfield, Glock, (take you choice of vendors) on every stage than who wins a gun off the table.

There are very few of us that plan on making a living at this. I go for the competition, shooting fun, seeing old friends and hopefully making some new ones.

[Barrettone]

Paul B.

Here are a couple of posts that were done discussing what you are proposing. I feel that it is a VERY viable solution to bringing the nationals into areas that USPSA thinks cannot hold them.

Jeff

Barrettone Posted on: May 2 2004, 10:27 PM

Replies: 2

Views: 120 BTW...A second thought would be to entertain an effort that involves two clubs in close proximity to one another going in together so they have the facilities required. We looked at it from that angle too. You could run shuttle buses if they were, say, within five miles of each other. It doesn't necessarrily have to be two IPSC clubs. Look into IDPA ranges that are close also. They will often rent their ranges. We were close to brokering a deal with a nearby IDPA club until we came up with our change over idea. Combining resources can be an effective way to meet the Nats criteria for hosting the match. Remember...outside the box.

Jeff

Forum: IPSC or USPSA Discussions · Post Preview: #154662

Nationals Suggestion Box 2

Barrettone Posted on: May 2 2004, 10:04 PM

Replies: 2

Views: 120 OK Guys and Gals,

I think we are onto something up here in Michigan. We are hosting a 14 stage match (Area 5 3 Gun) with only 7 bays. How you say? We have a changeover. We have a four day format. Thursday, Staff shoots handgun. We have a changeover that afternoon. The stages are designed in such a way as to modify a few walls, possibly reverse the flow of travel, and modify the target arrays so the shooter does not even feel the remotest sense of Deja Vu. We simply stake the stands in place (add witness paint marks also), video the stage, and have a stage crew standing by, so an hour after the last shot goes off, we can change over to long gun. Then Friday staff shoots long gun, and Saturday competitors shoot long gun. We then do the change-back to get the handgun stages for the competitors to shoot on Sunday. See where I'm going? Everybody thinks they have to have 18 bays to have 18 good stages. That isn't necessarily true. You have to think outside the box here. Say you do this with the nationals. You could have a crack unit who handles the change over. You run the first day with stages 1-9. You then do a change over and shoot stages 10-18 on days 2 and 3. Finally, you change back for day 4 to 1-9. You would shoot the match staff prior to iron out any potential problems or pitfalls before the match starts for competitors (they are afterall a SEPERATE MATCH). You can squad people to shoot day 1 and 2 or day 3 and four with only two changeovers. You could also add days and expand as necessary. Could you IMAGINE how many clubs would be instantly capable of hosting a Nats??? They simply need the parking to accommodate the match. I'm telling you...this can be done, and we plan to prove it in July. All you need is a 10 man change over team, and it can be done while still maintaining a level playing field for competitors 1 to 1001. Staff... you just have to bring your "A" game. OK folks fire away. This is gonna get good!!!

Jeff

Forum: IPSC or USPSA Discussions · Post Preview: #154660

[George]

s a shooter I appreciate low cost amenities like iced water on every stage, shade, and enough table space for my gear and people pasteing targets so shooters don't have to. I appreciate not having to walk a mile when the urge to purge hits me. I like safety areas on every other stage to clean and check out my gun. I like GOOD food served on the range like brauts with

peppers and onions and gyros

Right on! That's where the money needs to go, not the prize table.

My list of things I like to see at a match.

Shade/rain cover and enough chairs/tables available "in" it.

Ice water and little papercup dispensers.

Enough trash can capacity to "actually" handle the load at each stage.

High end porta-johns. Don't scrimp on quantity and quality, the bigger ones "are" better!

BTW, put the porta-johns in the shade.

If you serve food, make sure it stuff that is flat out fantastic, or just don't do it.

If I am less beat at the end of a day, thats enough for me. More creature comforts are better than more prizes IMHO.

Kimel makes a good point about HazMat stuff being given to folks who fly. I still like the idea of putting all of the little crap in a pile and each shooter gets one pass and three pieces (grab bag if you will) as he goes through the registration line.

BTW, if a $30,000 prize table is intelligently turned back into cash somehow (yes it will be a lot less), everyone might benefit in many ways. Heck, if obnoxiously large prize tables were turned into trophies and a little cash for the pro's at the top, we all might just get something really tangible in return.

I remember arguing with the prize committe over the funds they got for a large match many moons ago (I was the treasurer). Basically the way it works (back then anyway, I don't know if it has changed since then) is that you buy the guns at fantastically reduced prices so you can take say $7000 cash (the amount we finally allowed at that match) and buy guns from the sponsors that were worth 3-5x what was payed. In the end we advertised a $25,000 dollar prize table that year (a lot back then).

I remember many arduous arguments over the prize table concept and how it just has to be or the big shooters won't come. I also remember paying the RO's $50 per half day shift in cash that year. It cost $4500ish for all three days. I made the rounds personally and handed each RO a $50 bill at the start or end of shift. The vendors had a great match. We had lots of folks signing up for multiple shifts without being begged (a real first). We still made many, many thousands for our club too.

If it hasn't changed since then the prize table concept is bogus in my book. The cash spent in this manner by match organizers (even though it's much less than the advertised dollar value of the guns it buys) is better spent taking care of the shooters with even better stages and creature comforts and maybe even a paid staff too, imagine that

I know major money can be made in a major match, and I also know it can be used in better ways than it is sometimes. Just MHO anyway. Been there, done that, even still have the T-Shirts

Simple math. 200 shooters x $150 fee = $30,000 smackers to play with. That's a small figure compared to some matches. Lotsa ways to divy it out, some better than others.

--

Regards,

Geoffrey Linder AKA "George"

TY-11141

Edited May 17, 2004 by George

[Brazos Custom]

I get tired of hearing about the prize table thing costing the shooters and we could spend the money on something else. I have been to the last 8-10 nationals as a sponsor and have not had USPSA buy a single item from me for the prize table. Some of the Area matches and regional matches have bought product usually at distributor pricing and only when they had money left over. The prize table at Nationals should not be costing anything, the product is donated in return for sponsorship agreements. Last year we were a Bronze sponsor and that cost $3500 in product at retail. For that I got a sign on the range and a one line mention in Front Sight and one table at each Nationals - not exactly cost effective for me. You are not going to ever get money from me instead of product. What this says to me is that you don't want my product. It is insulting when a match comes to you and says you only sell cheap stuff we don't want any of that. We want the big sponsors who sell the expensive stuff. Well look around and see who really sponsors your matches it is mostly the little guys (non-manufacturer's) and we are the one's getting screwed.

p.s. I like going to Barry - except during the middle of the summer when it is 95 and 95% humidity.

[EricW]

I'm just starting to "sponsor" matches in a very very tiny way. If all I'm doing is pissing people off by putting trinkets on the prize table I'm going to stop right now and not even bother sending anything to the nationals.

As I'm understanding it, if I donated a few cases of Perrier or San Pellegrino and had my logo on the bottles, that would be better recieved as a creature-comfort by the shooters than prize table stuff? Is there even a mechanism by which to do that at Nationals?

[shred]

Hear Hear! Prize tables should be the perfect opportunity for shooters to try sponsor products-- they pick what they want, the sponsor gets sample product in the hands of shooters. Done right they don't add any cost, and the sponsor sells more when the shooter returns home.

It works for me.. I use what I pick and what works people around here buy more of.

[warpspeed]

I've yet to go to a Natioanls yet due to travel distance.

So, for purely selfish reasons, I'd like to see a Natioanls in SoCal. I know that a Race Gun nationals is out of the question but a Factory one would be OK.

[George]

Prize tables may honk some folks horns, but I fail to see what they they really achieve other than a form of advertising as Shred said and a reason to sandbag (as in I really wanna win a gun this year).

NASCAR and the AMA (American Motorcycle Association) don't have prize tables at their races. When I raced AFM (American Federation of Motorcycles) way back when, we didn't have prize tables, why should gun racing feature prize tables? Is it a throwback to Turkey Shoots ro something similar. What is with this need to get trinket for your achievement?

Yes, the small shops are needed in addition to the mega sponsors. But the requirement for $3500 in retail value for a little recognition and a vendor table is ridiculous. I would rant against that silly policy rather than participate and continue to promulgate such practices.

If as I understand it, the nationals (and other large USPSA matches) are understaffed and the folks doing the staffing are overworked, then cash is what is needed not more fodder for the prize table which IMHO contributes nothing tangible to the actual match.

I am not knocking small donations, but feel that $100 cash is better support than $500-$1000 worth of product if all the product does is sit on a prize table.

If small items are accepted from sponsors, let the shooters pick grab bag style at registration from the small stuff. This is a better way to let them sample wares of the non-gun type and it gets it into their hands before the match starts and the vendors are still there to sell them more stuff. The requirements for sponsorship should not be $3500 in retail product, maybe more like $1000 in product, or maybe $250 in cash for a vendor table and sponsor status. $3500 retail for a vendor table and an honorable mention is ridiculous, no matter how many matches it is for.

The high end product donated (or bought cheap) can be raffled to get cash. Give out trophies and plaques only for awards and use the cash to pay the staff, hire more help and make the shooters more enjoyable.

I really don't care about prizes myself and wonder why everyone wants one. Small and large sponsorship is needed, but chaining their support to a bloated prize table system just doesn't make sense compared to what else could be done with the time, energy and resources that go into assembling humongous piles of stuff to appease a desire for a doggy treat when you are finished shooting. How well I did is all that matters to me and if I do well, I will remember it better with a nice trophy or plaque than I will with a trinket or gun that i wasn;t gonna buy anyway.

--

Regards,

[sfinney]

I think we are drifting here - maybe we should start another thread on prizetables alone (again!) - in the mean time, here's MHO:

Cash payouts to match winners in each Divison 1,2,3 (not Class winners, overall MATCH winners).

Raffle off all donated guns to everyone, no ticket purchase required.

Tour the Prize Table in order of overall finish.

This helps eliminate sandbagging, rewards top shooters for their efforts, and still gives everyone a shot at taking home something "neat" as a prize.

Finish 1st D class, and upset all you got was a trophy? Want to win cash or better pick of the prize table? Practice. In the mean time, be proud of your trophy.

I personally like taking home new stuff to play with off of Prize Tables... many products I use today are a result of stuff I won on table and tried, and maybe never would have bought on my own if wasn't for the Sponsor donating it.... I'm using STI, Grams products, and Brazos products, on a repeat basis because of things I won, liked , and bought more.... don't underrate the "exposure" factor Sponsors gain from giving away their products - if you have a good product, its like drugs, get them hooked on the first one for free, they'll be back for more

But how many guns do people win that actually keep? Most guys who habitually win guns sell them off anyway (I know, some people actually build guns from all those frame kits). I think it would build better good will to everyone at the match (for a sponsor) to know that everyone has a chance to win a gun or rifle (like JP does usually), rather than just the top few guys. And handing them out by Class winners is not the answer, that just promotes sandbagging. Just check out the results at the TX Limited (where you usually win frames by class), and see how many B shooters finish in the overall top 10 or 20

[shred]

Somehow the Steel Challenge manages to have an awesome prize table (as in last-place still goes home with a $500 prize packages), plus 75+ guns and optional cash to the top 16.

How do they do that? The entry fee is high ($250), but not $500 high.

BTW, I've kept every gun I've ever won (which would be 1.6-- an XD from the Steel Challenge last year and 60% off a Para from Area 4). They have a sense of accomplishment attached.

AFAIK, Ted Bonnet has every gun he ever won..

[EricW]

Your opportunity to vote / explain what the prize table and sponsorship should and/or should not be is here.

[BDH]

BTW, I've kept every gun I've ever won (which would be 1.6--  an XD from the Steel Challenge last year and 60% off a Para from Area 4).  They have a sense of accomplishment attached.

Shred, with only 1.6, you are making me feel guilty. I'm currently at 3.0!!!

I just wish I had won one of them for some type of major shooting accomplishment...

[shred]

Ok, I lied... I forgot the 3 Glocks I won shooting GSSF. That doesn't really count though

[dminor]

Hi Ted,

I thought all you really wanted at Nationals was to drive the shuttle!!!

[mattjoe]

I like the concept of prize tables, not that i've ever gotten anything from them at the nationals, but I do like the fact that it rewards accomplishment and isn't this prizes by raffle concept which i think is utter B.S. especially at Area level matches. If I wanted a raffle, I'd take that hundred something plus dollars and buy a bunch of powerball tickets and try to win a hundred million dollars.

But we're in a competition, which means winners should be rewarded.

I say keep the Nationals prize table as it is, if i dont get something, i didn't earn it, that's my fault.

As for location- I love that description of San Angelo. I have no idea where it is, sounds like a Texas name, but I like the amenities listed.

Get out of Barry, it's been there so often, and there isn't all that much to do after you're done shooting. Las Vegas was wonderful, and they didnt have any trouble selling that match out. I would like to see it rotate so other people have an opportunity to attend and not travel as far. I heard Virginia was great.

Sponsors- Don't charge them a thing. Let them come and set up. It's great to see all the new stuff and get to buy what i need without having to wait for mail order.

If they must be charged something, keep it nominal, like the amount charged for a table at a gun show.

[Wakal]

San Angelo is in west/central Texas

Bob, thanks for giving us the other side of the story. IMO, $3,500 is a ton of product (even at retail) for a very little return. Thank you for supporting USPSA to that extent! (shameless plug: Bob builds great stuff, buy buy buy )

I really like the idea of a rotating match location.

Alex

[Nik Habicht]

I really like the idea of a rotating match location.

Alex

Me too! I'd get to see and appreciate more of the country that way.....

[George]

I am not a sponsor/vendor but I think I know a couple of things that they might appreciate as far as their accomodations go.

If you can give them a shaded and possibly even air-conditioned environment to offer their wares, the shooters would be more interested in spending time there and that translates to better sales for the vendors.

Make the vendor area centrally located so no-one has to go out of their way to stop and drop some cash their way.

Make sure that there are vendors there selling primers, powder, bullets and brass in bulk, cheap. Many shooters who drive to these matches will stock up like there is no tomorrow on this stuff if it is available because of the steep shipping and HazMat fee's.

Vendors should not have to pay an arm and a leg to get a table, but there should be some fee for the chance to sell to a fairly cash heavy crowd (if we didn't have any money at all, we wouldn't be there). Properly handled, a vendor area should be a big feature at a match and benefit all involved.

Sponsors should be given as many options as possible for their contribution. If someone wants to sponsor the match by showing up with a crew and everything it takes to handle the stage construction, what's wrong with that.Who says sponsors all have to be gun and gun part mfg's anyway, why not solicit other concerns and get some of the other things donated for recognition (especially attractive now that we will have TV coverage at larger events). If the sponsors were a diverse group it would help a lot with the public face of our sport. I can think of a couple of possibilities for starters, Cabela's, Columbia Sportswear and other sporting goods manufacturers. I am sure there are some folks out there with professional fund raising skills who could turn this into a big plus with a little work in the right directions.

I am sure that there are some points that will be argued for validity and I am sure that I have missed some good possibilities too, but all in all, the vendors and sponsors should be treated as customers too and if they get what they want/need, then everyone will win in the end.

I still say the resources put into the prize table concept could be harnessed in a more efficient manner while still rewarding the front runners. The end result of redistribution of the match resources could wind up benefitting all involved, every step of the way. IMHO, so much work is donated and sweated out by so few that it is shameful to see how we lavish the prize table to the exclusion of paying for the work that needs to be done to have a match. In the end we always wind up begging for help because the money is all tied up elsewhere.

I do understand that merch' is easier for a sponsor to provide, but still believe that it can be converted to cash or turned into services rendered (barter the guns for stage setup services and construction materials, or each RO and fulltime match official gets a gun.

Basically 90% of us will not place top in the match, or in our class and I have no problem not getting an expensive trinket unless I am in that 10 percent. But I do feel that the folks who work the event deserve more than they are getting at present. I believe in finding a way to pay for services, I have found that you get better service that way

Once again, thanks for listening, some may agree, many may not, but IMHO there are some good things that can be done if match resources were distributed better.

--

Regards,

Edited May 25, 2004 by George