Nationals Suggestion Box

[mactiger]

To avoid too much thread drift and argument, I thought it might be better to start a new topic devoted strictly to your suggestions for improving our National Championship matches. Please feel free to add any constructive criticism here. A complaint without a suggested solution really doesn't help much.

One problem (at any match) is that very few people take the time to give any sort of feedback, either during or after. Most of the negative comments are usually found in various forums or email lists, and are never addressed to the people who could possibly do something about the problem. Here's an opportunity to make suggestions that could have an impact on this year's match, as well as future matches.

Location? Timing? Shooting Schedule? Prizes? Awards? Amenities?

Speak up.

Troy

[BDH]

Troy, great idea, and I can't wait to see the feedback. I do have an idea about bringing in an army of Dillon girls to the match, but I won't go there....

[Jeeper]

Troy

My suggestion is to change the nationals schedule so that more juniors could come by putting it at a time that they are on a vacation. THis would occur if it was more in the summer than the fall. I know that the area matches might have to change but those could be worked with.

Keith

[mactiger]

Troy, great idea, and I can't wait to see the feedback. I do have an idea about bringing in an army of Dillon girls to the match, but I won't go there....

Hell, why not?!?

It would certainly boost attendance, sort of like the Swedish Bikini Team of times gone by.

Fill me in on the details in a private email!

Troy

[Jake Di Vita]

Jeeper, the only problem with that is unless it's over a holiday, there is NO time during the year when all the schools in the country are on vacation. Except for the summer time of course.

[Jeeper]

Jeeper, the only problem with that is unless it's over a holiday, there is NO time during the year when all the schools in the country are on vacation. Except for the summer time of course.

Summer is only like 6 weeks before when nationals are held anyway. I personally think that is when they should be held.

[mactiger]

Hi, guys.

I appreciate the suggestion, and it's been duly noted: hold Nationals at a time when Junior shooters can attend without missing school. I agree.

Let's not use this forum to debate when, but rather to gather other suggestions for improving our Nationals. We'll never make everybody happy with Nationals--that's a given.

Thanks.

Troy

[Jake Di Vita]

With regards to improvements....I think BDH's idea deserves some looking into.

[BDH]

With regards to improvements....I think BDH's idea deserves some looking into.

Um Jake, aren't you too young to be thinking about Dillon girls?

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm 19....what else could I be thinking about at this age?

[Chriss Grube]

Like everything else in life the center focus keeps coming back to MONEY. I would like to see the Nationals move around the country rather than these long term contracts. I hear the vendors complain about getting raped on fees and losing money by attending. It is a double edged sword. They are there to sell stuff BUT it is also a hell of a big benefit to most shooters. You can fondle the gear, save shipping and hazmat AND there is a Gunsmith there that can hopefully fix anything that breaks. Seems to be less and less vendors lately. Make the fees reasonable and bring back the vendors.

As far as losing money for all these years what is the problem. How do all these other matches run and cover everything and some even make a profit for benefit groups like AWARE? Area 8 seems to be a pretty good example of how to run a match. Maybe Dave Miller and George Jones can give out some lessons? They have had stages and props that would rival any nationals match and most were better than the stages at nationals. The RO's were taken care of and have had some damn nice shirts out if it too. The A8 match fee was 100 bucks for the last few years. This is for 10-12 stages. Nationals is over twice as much and MAYBE twice the stages. If they can do it financially why can't Nationals.

Is it the prize table? Phil Strader put a prize table together a couple years ago that didn't cost squat and they ended up with more stuff to award than shooters. Granted Phil busted his butt and I'm not sure there are many people that could accomplish the same feat but it was done. How many people really give a damn about spending 1200+ to win a barrel or mag pouch? I have a $1200 barrel from nationals for sale if anyone is interseted! Cut the table or eliminate it if need be. I'd rather have the trophy I earned rather than something I can buy if I need. I guess the lesson to be learned is if something isn't working try something new. We don't have to reinvent the friggin wheel there are plenty of people that know how to run a big match without losing their shirt.

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree with Chriss.

Even though it would probably never happen. I'd like to see the cost analysis sheet of a Nationals compared to an Area or even State level match.

Does USPSA do their financial planning in house or hire a professional?

[mactiger]

Thanks, Chriss and Jake.

USPSA does it's own in-house budgeting for Nationals. When you do a match budget, there are certain things you need to assume, and one of those is attendance. If you don't get the entries, it directly affects the bottom line.

(Not an excuse, just an explanation--there are tons of reasons people don't shoot Nationals, and we don't have room here.)

Costs: remember that USPSA does budget for travel for range officers, stats people, USPSA staff, etc. Most area matches don't pay travel.

(And before we get into "importing" range officers--1) it's a Nationals, we want the best we can get, & 2) there are not enough "local" range officers around PASA to do that match. Perhaps other venues could provide more help, but out of almost 80 applications to date, I only have a handful of applicants from the "local" area, which includes the neighboring states.)

Hotel rooms and meals cost a bit, as well, and there is usually a setup crew on the range at least a week ahead of time, which is an additional cost. Last year, some costs were incurred for repairing props that had been damaged/destroyed in the monster thunderstorm the year before. And, for the 3 Gun, a target frame was damaged by wind--this belonged to PASA, but since USPSA used it, it had to be repaired. A minor cost, but still an expense.

Back-to-back matches are fun, but there are additional costs involved in those, as well. Since some RO's could work one, shoot one, some extra hotel rooms had to be arranged for the ones that filled in. Likewise, there are two range rental fees involved, which are likely higher than those for Area matches.

I hear you on reducing costs and increasing the number of vendors and sponsors with no increase in cost to them. You're right, we don't need to reinvent the wheel--one of the reasons I'm asking these questions is that we want your input and suggestions.

Troy

[BDH]

I'm 19....what else could I be thinking about at this age?

Cool.... since you are over 18. Maybe we can hook up at the Buckeye Blast and I will tell you about the Dillon girl idea......

Wait, what am I doing? You need to focus on becoming a World Champion!! Dillon (or other) girls will only distract you from your goal.

I think it would be best to leave the Dillon girls to 40 something CRO's and RM's (right Troy?).....

[BDH]

On a serious note, I would like to see Nationals rotate between the different Areas. Nothing against Barry, but I loved seeing it go to Bend as I had never been there before. What a great part of the Country, and I probably would have never seen it if I didn't get out there for Nats. I wonder what else I have been missing....

Of course, I do know the dilemma is that not all of the Areas have the facilities, the staff, etc., to pull this off.

I would vote for going to Frank's place in FL as when Frank was in the hunt, there were several people locally that have not been to a Nats in years, that said, 'if Nats shows up in FL, consider me in'....

[mactiger]

MMMMM, Dillon Girls

Definitely CRO's and RM's--before we get too old to know what to do with them.

Troy

[tightloop]

Perhaps the USPSA and Mr. Voigt can take a page from the NFL and the Super Bowl

The Natl's is the equal of the SB in action pistol shooting, so why not let there be a bid process. Everyone who wants the match bid on getting it. No $$ changes hands up front in any form. The winning location is announced in the Front Sight mag along with their winning bid for all the shooters to see. It also lets the other bidders know where they failed to get the nod, and the match.

At the time the contract is a year or two from being up at Barry, call for bids and get it going. Houston bid on the SB 3 or 4 yrs in advance.

This method would preclude any appearance of fixing the bid..

Remember, if enough folks don't like what is going on, you can always vote out the guy who signs the contracts...

[Liota]

Troy and Vince,

In the interest of fairness to Alex, we did ask Michael Voigt directly what it would take to bring the Nationals to San Angelo. He told us it would take about $15K in cash up front from the community. We told him we couldn't guarantee that, but what we could offer is the ability to host at least 18 stages, a local airport not more than 10 minutes from the range, over 600 hotel rooms available, and possibly some lower rates for Nationals attendees, restaurants to support the shooters and staff, and no location in town more than 15 minutes from the range. He told us point blank that the cash was non-negotiable.

The definition for bribery does fit in that Barry has had the Nationals for an extended time. It has given their community an unparalleled benefit compared to the rest of the USPSA community. I tend to think something that big needs to be moved around the country annually to spread the wealth, so to speak. There are more ranges capable of hosting. Perhaps you can rotate them around the areas annually.

Now, for my suggestion, I liked the shooting schedule from last year. It cut waaay down on the downtime. Are you all planning to run it that way this year as well? If not, I would suggest it. It benefitted the shooters greatly by not making us sit for long periods in the cold. I think it benefitted the vendors also, in that competitors had time to browse and shop for a more extended time.

Now that I've made my suggestion, I should have read the whole thread first. What BDH said about hosting the nationals in different areas.

My .02,

Liota

[Jim Norman]

Here's a thought. Just like there is not a World Shoot every year, Maybe we should consider a Alternate match year schedule. Hold Open-Limited iin year 1, FG in year 2 repeat? There would be a match every year, but each Divison would shoot every other year.

It may or may not increase individual participation in the divisions on an annual basis.

Jim Norman

[mactiger]

Thanks, Jim. Not a bad idea. Can you expand a bit on how this might work?

Troy

[kimel]

I second Jim's idea! In fact I have been pondering this same concept while reading the thread from front to back and am pleased that at least one other person was thinking similarly. Doesn't mean I am not nutz...but at least I have company.

I would think that we might want to give due consideration to which sides we pair up. Limited and Open MIGHT be better split apart. We need to maximize attendance and those two seem to be the biggest draw. Maybe put Limited and L-10 together and Open/Production on the alternate years.

Revo could go either way I guess...or every year. That might boost the heck out of the Revo crowd.

I definately think that Nats needs to rotate through the areas. Spread it around.

Face it, the long-term contracts that USPSA has been entering into lately have been a boondoggle. For instance: We finally get to start seeing the footage from last year's Nats right before this years Nats. Yeah...that was a good idea.

When the contract at Berry runs out they go to the bottom of the list right after Area 1. Go back in history and figure out which area hasn't had a Nats in forever and they go to the head of the class. If they can't come up with a bid then go to the next area down the list and so on until you have it sorted out.

Like Tightloop said, this can be worked out years in advance. A range that only has a half-dozen bays and an active club with room to expand could reasonably put in a bid if they knew they had 3 years to get ready.

500 shooters plus support staff, families, etc. brings a LOT of $$$ to a community. This is probably what the $15K up front thing comes from. It also means the group is serious. But we need to re-market it and call it more of an "application deposit" which goes in with the bid but is refundable.

Some basic Reqs:

1) Gun friendly state. If they don't allow concealed carry and issue permits on a reasonable basis or hi-cap mags they aren't gun friendly.

2) Major airport within reasonable distance (2 hours?)

3) Reasonable spectrum of food and lodging. Some folks don't want to stay at Motel 6 and eat at McDonalds but others do.

4) Committments from the local media (TV, Radio, Print) for coverage from the bid going to USPSA to the readying of the range to the match to the awards ceremony. We MUST have more media coverage and ESPN isn't going to be there so let's start at the grassroots and see if we can't stir something up.

Death to the prize table. If companies want to sponsor the match let them do it by sponsoring rooms/travel/meals for the match staff. Face it, the folks winning the match don't need another gun to add to the pile. If you want to have a random drawing for a pile of guns fine.

Or vendors can sponsor a BBQ/Fish Fry/whatever one evening.

Hope that helps.

[Jon Merricks]

Troy, Thanks for putting this out here to get some input. This is my first Nat's and I would think that if you wanted to have one big Nat's you could have half the divisions shooting the first part of the week and the other half the second. This many days off work it really tough. Also since it's spread out it's would be nice if we shoot in half day formats. You could rotate mornings and afternoons so everybody get's some of the heat. If your already going to to this thanks.

[Jim Norman]

Troy,

Kimel did a fair good job.

I would not have a problem with Open-L10 and Limited, Productin-Revolver.

I would think one way to make the decision would be to mine the database at HQ to see who shoots what how often. THen you make the slpits toallow for the greatest number of attendees.

Personallly, while I have no great love of Barry., It does work. True there is no where to go, but I am there to shoot. All the other points are importatn. I would prefer a gun friendly state that honors CCW form others. It would be good to be centrally located to minimize the number that have no choice but to fly. Range requirements are somewhat obvioius. Does USPSA own the props? We should then purchase an over the road, serviceable trailer and put our stuff in it. It can either go to the club that will be hosting and they can store it, or we simply pay a storage yard to hold it. You hire a trucker to move it a couple months befroe and there it is. If we don't own the props, then this is moot.

As for a Long term contract, I feel that a club should probably get to host two-three in a row in order to offset the required improvements. It may be that you can't host two cycles back to back, but you can do two on, two off. that would give an incentive to do well, but also give you time to recover.

Jim

[mactiger]

Thanks for the comments, and please keep them coming.

The idea of a "moveable match", hauled around on a trailer, has been discussed by a few people. It has its merits, especially if it means that a host range or club would not have to either build or buy a bunch of props and steel. I'm sure that we have some truck driver members--we might save a bunch on hauling that trailer around.

I like the split idea from Kimel, it makes sense to not put the two major divisions together in one year.

One thing that I think USPSA has not done is to tap the tremendous amount of knowledge and experience that our membership possesses. Our membership consists of engineers, carpenters, chemists, lawyers, plumbers; you get the picture. This forum is just one way to try to tap into that knowledge base.

Nationals scheduling: we did have an alternate squadding schedule that we were kicking around, but we felt it was too late to make a radical change in squadding, since many people had already recieved and accepted their slot, and the dates were published. I have no fear of alternate squadding systems, but I think they need to be well publicized before people make travel plans. I do think we'll be going with a half-day on, half-day off format to alleviate some of the sitting around between stages, but I haven't seen the schedule yet, so I'm not sure.

Thanks again.

Troy

[BDH]

Troy,

I just re-read this thread and unless I missed it, I don't think that anyone mentioned how much advance notice we should get for the big matches.

Personally, I think that at the conclusion of this years 3-Gun, we should be announcing the locations and dates for NEXT years 3-Gun. Same thing with the Pistol Nationals.... announce next year at this years award banquet or something.

Announcing a year in advance gives people the opportunity to plan vacation, book rooms, plan their match schedule, etc. While I can often get freed up on relatively short notice, I know a lot of people cannot (I also agree that they should be held when the Juniors can shoot them).

My .02.....