Rules on steel plates hit but don't fall on first shot

[ima45dv8]

You hit it and it doesn't fall off, shoot it again or leave it and let the RM calibrate it.

I wasn't aware there's a way to do that.

[Jim Norman]

You hit it and it doesn't fall off, shoot it again or leave it and let the RM calibrate it.

I wasn't aware there's a way to do that.

Mark,

We all agree that in a perfect world the plates would always separate when and only when hit. This is an imperfect world so on occasion a plate will get knocked off by another plate or it will not fully separate from the arm of the star. I am saying lets set up a special case rule where we look at the Star and say the following:

If a plate fails to separate, the shooter has the choice of shooting it down or asking for a 'calibration shot' said shot will be fired from the same position that the shooter engaged the star from, the ammo for the calibration shot will be between 115 and 120PF. If the plate fails to fall, then the shooter gets a reshoot, if it falls the shooter gets a miss. In the case where a plate gets knocked off by another plate falling, the shooter gets the point. NO REF called.

If the shooter deliberately shoots the center protector plate of the star in an effort to knock off the plates without actually engaging them the penalty will be a DQ for Unsportsmanlike. Or less draconian we could award him 5 FTE and 5 Mikes.

[DyNo!]

I agree - the design of a TS lends itself to a plate higher on the star knocking one off lower.

I felt really bad when at the A6 multigun in 2010 I gave Katie Harris a reshoot after cleaning a TS with 3 shotgun shots in a great run. Fortunately the second run was even better.

With shotguns, the problem is even worse and a lot of local matches and major outlaw matches simply state "steel must fall to score." (But steel is generally not calibrated in MG for PF since there is none in most outlaw sets)

It's a fun target to shoot but many years of wear and tear since their introduction have taken their toll on some I have seen.

Edited August 5, 2011 by DyNo!

[sperman]

[Skydiver]

[deleting due to double post.]

Edited August 5, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

As far as I know plates can't be calibrated.

But let's say a special rule is made for Texas Stars... How will that calibration/challenge work?

I can almost see a fair calibration being done on a freshly setup star (ideally by using a fish scale to measure torque applied to the furthermost edge), but I can't see a fair challenge being done where the plate has already been shot once (or more) and is just hanging on by the spring pressure and friction. If the challenge procedure is shooting the plate again what if it's that last shot was what was needed to dislodge the spring? If the challenge procedure is to apply torque again, is that a fair measurement if the plate is now hanging crooked?

Also consider the centrifugal force on the base of the plate while the star is spinning versus when it is static. Given enough rust on the cross at the base of the plate and in the channel the cross lays in, there will be more friction the faster the star is spinning. That friction will decrease when the star comes to rest. Presumably the challenge procedure will only be done when star is at rest, otherwise somebody will have to replicate the speed at which the star was spinning at the time the shooter shot the plate and it didn't fall as expected.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Skydiver

[Jim Norman]

Calibration after a hit, be it on a popper or hypothetically on a Plate on a star is NEVER the same as on an unhit popper/star-plate.

We already live with that fact. I don't like it, but that is the rule and I see no better way, at least with regards to a popper.

For the TS, how about unless it is broken, shoot it down. If it half falls, shoot it again, if it still doesn't fall and you want to leave it, OK, if the catch is broken or jambed then you get a REF mandatory reshoot, otherwise you get a the miss.

I am just looking for a set way of handling this. A reshoot because the RO sees the plate move and assumes you hit it when in reality you hit the arm and the plate wiggled but didn't fall or you hit the arm and the plate does fall is wrong, it ties up the match and it is too dependent upon eye witness testimony. Better a rule that covers the special case of the Texas Star.

[wide45]

I am not in favor of special rules for special targets. Make your stars, racks, and flippers function under the normal rules, or don't use them.

Good stage design is never about gimmicks.

[spanky]

You hit it and it doesn't fall off, shoot it again or leave it and let the RM calibrate it.

I wasn't aware there's a way to do that.

Mark,

We all agree that in a perfect world the plates would always separate when and only when hit. This is an imperfect world so on occasion a plate will get knocked off by another plate or it will not fully separate from the arm of the star. I am saying lets set up a special case rule where we look at the Star and say the following:

If a plate fails to separate, the shooter has the choice of shooting it down or asking for a 'calibration shot' said shot will be fired from the same position that the shooter engaged the star from, the ammo for the calibration shot will be between 115 and 120PF. If the plate fails to fall, then the shooter gets a reshoot, if it falls the shooter gets a miss. In the case where a plate gets knocked off by another plate falling, the shooter gets the point. NO REF called.

If the shooter deliberately shoots the center protector plate of the star in an effort to knock off the plates without actually engaging them the penalty will be a DQ for Unsportsmanlike. Or less draconian we could award him 5 FTE and 5 Mikes.

I've seen two star plate designs. One works 99.9% of the time, the other almost always works okay. This will continue to occur if clubs don't do research before they buy props.

Edited August 5, 2011 by spanky

[Nik Habicht]

I'm curious....What if a plate is hit and it spins a little, enough to NOT knock it off the stand? I've been in matches before where the shooter was required to keep shooting to knock it down and no REF was called. could this have been before the rule 4.3.1.6 was created?

Probably not....

Would you call REF if the plate spun and not fall off on the first hit? Or let the shooter keep shooting to knock it down? Again, just curious.

Of course I'd call REF on the first shot if the plate was hit and did not fall. The "probably not" was in reference to "was this prior to rule creation...."

[Nik Habicht]

I've seen a LOT more failures on the MGM stars than I have on the Terry Ashton star (I think i've seen two or three, literally, on his design).

Same here. (and I love MGM steel....)

[GeorgeInNePa]

You hit it and it doesn't fall off, shoot it again or leave it and let the RM calibrate it.

I wasn't aware there's a way to do that.

Mark,

We all agree that in a perfect world the plates would always separate when and only when hit. This is an imperfect world so on occasion a plate will get knocked off by another plate or it will not fully separate from the arm of the star. I am saying lets set up a special case rule where we look at the Star and say the following:

If a plate fails to separate, the shooter has the choice of shooting it down or asking for a 'calibration shot' said shot will be fired from the same position that the shooter engaged the star from, the ammo for the calibration shot will be between 115 and 120PF. If the plate fails to fall, then the shooter gets a reshoot, if it falls the shooter gets a miss. In the case where a plate gets knocked off by another plate falling, the shooter gets the point. NO REF called.

If the shooter deliberately shoots the center protector plate of the star in an effort to knock off the plates without actually engaging them the penalty will be a DQ for Unsportsmanlike. Or less draconian we could award him 5 FTE and 5 Mikes.

A match should never be decided with an "imperfect target". Might as well just draw straws for the win...

[EkuJustice]

I would love to see it changed to a non mandatory reshoot if the shooter chooses to shoot it till it falls they should be able to do so.

[Skydiver]

I would love to see it changed to a non mandatory reshoot if the shooter chooses to shoot it till it falls they should be able to do so.

Going along with that plan consider these two:

Al is shooting at a star and takes 5 shots. First shot knocks off one plate, second shot knocks off another plate, third hits plate but it sticks, fourth hits plate but it also sticks, fifth shot knocks off fifth plate, and that fifth plate knocks off the last two plates while in the process of falling.

Ben is shooting at a star and takes 5 shots. First shot knocks off one plate, second shot knocks off another plate, third and fourth shot miss completely, fifth shot knocks off a third plate, and that third plate knocks off the last two plates while in the process of falling.

No reshoot for either shooter? Or reshoot for Ben based on REF, but not for Al? Or some other variation?

I'm not trying to knock the idea. I think that there maybe some value in exploring the it. I'm just trying see what the parameters are.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Skydiver

[Tim/GA]

Even plates on stands (not stars) can have issues. At the local match where I am MD, we have had a bunch of newer shooters coming out. Good thing is that they have been coming back and over time we get them involved with the score keeping (we use Palms) as a necessity. I had started to notice that both new and older shooters were not necessarily watching what they should be during the run (foot faults, movement, REF, etc). Each month I have started to address some part of the rules during the shooter's brief so I covered that last month. Next will be plates.

Here is the question: As the RO should be concentrating on the gun shooter, they most likely will not see the hits. Since a hit on the stand (or arm of a star) is a miss, the shooter should re-engage. If that hit on the stand or arm knocks off the plate, it is a mandatory REF. On the other hand, if a hit on the plate fails to knock it off it is a REF even if the shooter re-engages. They key is that the RO or scorekeeper must be able to call it either way. Can't call it by sound, gotta see it. What should the call be if they are not sure where the shot hit? Example- hear steel hit, plate wobbles and stays up, cannot tell where hit it prior to shooter re-engaging and knock down the steel. To my mind, play on. Or- hear steel hit, sounds funny, steel is down but could not see hit. Again keep going.

I guess what needs to be addressed is that the RO or scorekeeper MUST issue re-shoot if they KNOW a plate did not fall when hit or a plate fell when the support was hit? And also that the shooter should keep going until stopped by the RO. Thoughts?

[JayWord]

Before I start this is only my opinion.

I do not feel Texas Stars of any design belong in any match other than a club match in handgun. Multi-gun (Shotgun) is different.

There are two reasons:

1. They are very hard to keep consistent and fair for all shooters. See the above thread.

2. Shooters in major matches will not reset them because of the paint issue.

I ran a stage in Tulsa with two of them. I ruined a set of gloves resetting plates because shooters do not want to get paint on their delicate fingers.

My favorite story about Texas stars is a stage from the 2009 WIIT. 4 texas stars and 4 metric targets. One shooter started with 101 rounds and left 4 plates. This is a test of skill how???

Jay

Again this only my opinion. Take it with the grain of salt it deserves.

[Jim Norman]

What seems to be the consensus is that plates, be they on stands singly or on the arms of a Texas Star can be problematic. Perhaps the rules regarding plates need to be: Shoot'em down, they fall god for you, how did they fall? From some chain of events set into action by your pistol shot so you get the points. We know that we cannot always tell with 100% certainty that it was the plate that was edges and didn't fall and not the stand that was edged and caused a wobble.

Personally I fee the TS is an excellent challenge, I have also seen the arms and plates used separate from the TS. This year's Double Tap had them on a swinging bridge type arrangement, with two steel NS targets activated by a popper. Moving reactive targets. What can be a better challenge?

All our targets should scatter after the first shot!

[Joe4d]

Even plates on stands (not stars) can have issues. At the local match where I am MD, we have had a bunch of newer shooters coming out. Good thing is that they have been coming back and over time we get them involved with the score keeping (we use Palms) as a necessity. I had started to notice that both new and older shooters were not necessarily watching what they should be during the run (foot faults, movement, REF, etc). Each month I have started to address some part of the rules during the shooter's brief so I covered that last month. Next will be plates.

Here is the question: As the RO should be concentrating on the gun shooter, they most likely will not see the hits. Since a hit on the stand (or arm of a star) is a miss, the shooter should re-engage. If that hit on the stand or arm knocks off the plate, it is a mandatory REF. On the other hand, if a hit on the plate fails to knock it off it is a REF even if the shooter re-engages. They key is that the RO or scorekeeper must be able to call it either way. Can't call it by sound, gotta see it. What should the call be if they are not sure where the shot hit? Example- hear steel hit, plate wobbles and stays up, cannot tell where hit it prior to shooter re-engaging and knock down the steel. To my mind, play on. Or- hear steel hit, sounds funny, steel is down but could not see hit. Again keep going.

I guess what needs to be addressed is that the RO or scorekeeper MUST issue re-shoot if they KNOW a plate did not fall when hit or a plate fell when the support was hit? And also that the shooter should keep going until stopped by the RO. Thoughts?

If the plates are repainted like they are supposed to you'll know if the plate was hit. I think the plate rule is fine, We have a score keeper to keep score, not a big stretch to expect them to keep score, If they have plates they can watch them, if the plates and stands get a shot of paint everyso often it isnt hard,

I'm not sure who's is who's but the star with the two pins I used at Area 8 worked for all but 1 of a couple hundred shooters, the trapazoid spring ones at Nationals (2009) failed for every shooter on my squad.

The BOD needs to address this, Either change the rules or ban the targets. I like the idea of treating a texas star like a popper, And the targets are fun to shoot at so I dont wanna see them banned but they are not being scored properly, as many of them in use simply are not reliable enough. So RO's start letting them slide or the matches would never finnish.

[coldchar]

I can always tell when a bunch of bottom feeders are proposing rule changes. As a round gun shooter with only 6 rounds, I would be real unhappy, in a significant match, in which you guys would have a the option of driving down a Texas Star. My only joy in life is from how many bottom feeders I can whip, even knowing that none of us ever pay any attention to the combined final results.