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Rules on steel plates hit but don't fall on first shot


Brammy

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I know the rules speak to the fact that if an RO sees a plate hit in the prescribed area but not fall, then he/she can stop the competitor and declare equipment malfunction and offer a reshoot.

The question I have though is what happens if a plate is shot in the prescribed area, does not fall on the first shot, is subsequently shot and falls, and the course of fire is completed. Would the RO have an option to offer a reshoot?.... I ask because at a recent match a reshoot was offered and the RO justified it as he claims the plates were being hit and not falling at the first hit.

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The question I have though is what happens if a plate is shot in the prescribed area, does not fall on the first shot, is subsequently shot and falls, and the course of fire is completed. Would the RO have an option to offer a reshoot?....

No reshoot. If you drive it down, you own it.

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The question I have though is what happens if a plate is shot in the prescribed area, does not fall on the first shot, is subsequently shot and falls, and the course of fire is completed. Would the RO have an option to offer a reshoot?....

No reshoot. If you drive it down, you own it.

Sorry Mark ... I've had this discussion with George Jones on MANY occasions! (Troy too, I think.) 4.3.1.6 is VERY specific and leaves little to no room for intrepretation.

That is part of my pet peeve ... I'd like to see the rule changed to reflect what you describe!!! :cheers:

Edited by Schutzenmeister
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The question I have though is what happens if a plate is shot in the prescribed area, does not fall on the first shot, is subsequently shot and falls, and the course of fire is completed. Would the RO have an option to offer a reshoot?....

No reshoot. If you drive it down, you own it.

Sorry Mark ... I've had this discussion with George Jones on MANY occasions! (Troy too, I think.) 4.3.1.6 is VERY specific and leaves little to no room for intrepretation.

That is part of my pet peeve ... I'd like to see the rule changed to reflect what you describe!!! :cheers:

BLAM!

Sorry. I had just replied on a popper thread and momentarily lost sight of the fact we were talking about PLATES here.

Thanks, Mike.

:D

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If the RO notices the plate was hit and didnt fall he should stop you as soon as possible and order reshoot. There is no option. You will occassionally have problems with people who stop reading after, "Plate must fall to score" Not sure if the current 4.3.1.6 is a newer rule or not but sometimes it sure seems like it.

Alot of people get amnesia about this rule when dealing with Texas stars. One reason I think they shouldnt be allowed. I have shot majors, including Nationals and never see them scored properly. They just arnt reliable enough.

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Thanks for the replies guys..... The prop in question was a Texas star..... The shooter had one run where he hit the frame twice, missed several times then nicked a plate. The RO then declared REF and stopped him while simultaneously the said plate fell to the ground... On the second run he nicked the plates a few times without them falling, shot them all off, and the RO offered another reshoot which was declined.....would the off centre hits still allow a REF to be declared on the star or on plates?

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Plates are plates. It doesn't matter where you hit them (assuming you hit the plate itself). If there is evidence of a hit and the plate fails to fall then a re-shoot is in order.

Edited by spanky
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I'm curious....What if a plate is hit and it spins a little, enough to NOT knock it off the stand? I've been in matches before where the shooter was required to keep shooting to knock it down and no REF was called. could this have been before the rule 4.3.1.6 was created?

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I'm curious....What if a plate is hit and it spins a little, enough to NOT knock it off the stand? I've been in matches before where the shooter was required to keep shooting to knock it down and no REF was called. could this have been before the rule 4.3.1.6 was created?

Probably not....

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This is another reason as a range officer I hate Texas Starts or any other device of similar design.

Gary

I love the Texas Star as a shooter -- but when including one in a match, you really need a sharp RO crew on the stage, and it better be a short stage, because you will have reshoots....

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I'm curious....What if a plate is hit and it spins a little, enough to NOT knock it off the stand? I've been in matches before where the shooter was required to keep shooting to knock it down and no REF was called. could this have been before the rule 4.3.1.6 was created?

Probably not....

Would you call REF if the plate spun and not fall off on the first hit? Or let the shooter keep shooting to knock it down? Again, just curious.

Edited by Mark R
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It doesnt matter what happens,,, that ole spin on edge is and old rule verbage thing. If the plate is hit, it either falls or doesnt fall, If it falls it scores if not it is a REF and reshoot.

I watched the 2009 National stage with a texas star, I dont think a single shooter on my stage was scored correctly. Either plates fell when they wernt hit, or they didnt fall when hit the first time. NO reshoots were given.

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I'm curious....What if a plate is hit and it spins a little, enough to NOT knock it off the stand? I've been in matches before where the shooter was required to keep shooting to knock it down and no REF was called. could this have been before the rule 4.3.1.6 was created?

Probably not....

Actually, if my memory is correct ... YES. Once upon a time, in a place ... Well, you know!

It used to be that if a plate was struck and didn't spin too far, you had to keep shooting it until it went down. This created a judgement dilemma for ROs on when to stop the shooter for safety reasons (i.e., an edge-on plate is a DANGEROUS animal) and a judgement gap from one RO to another on just where that point was.

Evolution of the rules came in and we now have our current 4.3.1.6. If you hit it and it dosen't gown down ... STOP! Reshoot. (RO tells you this ... Don't just stop and tell the RO - He may not have seen it!)

The international rule, by contrast, states that if a plate "has been adequately hit but it fails to fall ..." the RO MAY declare REF. Here in USPSA we decided (for better or worse) to take that subjective, on-the-spot judgement call out of the equation. You be the judge on what you think has more merit. But for now, our rule is that if a plate is hit (at all) and fails to fall, the RO MUST order a reshoot.

Edited by Schutzenmeister
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It doesnt matter what happens,,, that ole spin on edge is and old rule verbage thing. If the plate is hit, it either falls or doesnt fall, If it falls it scores if not it is a REF and reshoot.

I watched the 2009 National stage with a texas star, I dont think a single shooter on my stage was scored correctly. Either plates fell when they wernt hit, or they didnt fall when hit the first time. NO reshoots were given.

Sounds like the star one of our clubs has.

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Yes I was very surprised to see this at nationals, I guess I was just as guilty though, I cleaned the star in about 3.5 seconds, I shot the top plate it fell and knocked off two more on the way to the ground, I kinda flinched but kept shooting, scored as they fell. I then watched almost every shooter on the squad have REF's one way or the other. No reshoots.

I must say I RO'd Area 8 2010 I think, my stage had a star and I only ordered one reshoot, and I was watching, I think I got that stage cause I complained about stars, I must say that one was pretty reliable.

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I've seen a LOT more failures on the MGM stars than I have on the Terry Ashton star (I think i've seen two or three, literally, on his design).

I like MGM targets, but I've shot several MGM stars that wouldn't fall consistently, especially the top (i.e. 1st) plate. There's not much more frustrating that putting a perfect first hit (major PF, too) on the first plate, only to see it lean back then spring right back without falling.

I've only shot 2 Terry Ashton stars, but I've shot each one many times (my two "local" clubs each have one), and I have yet to see one of them fail to fall with a good hit.

BB

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I have one each of the stars and a good hit takes them down,I think I have seen one take another plate with it on the way down,we just let it go,,mark one up for lucky shooter..level 1 match--and fun shoots..

but when I first started shooting and hit a plate and it turned,,I was told it had to fall keep shooting..

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Just maybe we need a 'Special Case" for the Texas Star. Yes they look like plates, but let us treat them like a Popper. You hit it and it doesn't fall off, shoot it again or leave it and let the RM calibrate it. I'd really hate to see the TS go away. It is a sweet target, it really tests a shooter's ability to transition fast and accurately.

By enacting a Special Case for the TS, we'd also eliminate Nik's concerns about proper calling of a hit that didn't take off a plate and potential endless reshoots or the spectre of tossing a stage out.

Thoughts anyone? We already have Special Cases for the Classic vs the Metric so it has been done before.

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