vluc Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 So here is the background. I own several G34’s and 17’s that I use shooting production (both 2 pin and 3 pin models). Currently running a 3 pin G34 that I bought from a fellow shooter a few years ago. Gun had at least a couple of 10K’s through it when I bought it, yet shot true for me for the last two years when it suddenly started to show some keyholing and tumbling of rounds. Originally I thought it may be a crimp problem, but as I shoot twice at matches, and I switch guns so that I am running two different G34’s, the second gun (usually my original 2 pin G34 with 35K+ through it) never showed the problem, so ammo was eliminated as a variable. Just before the Ohio Championship, the 3 pin started tumbling/keyholing more bullets – up from 2 or 3 a match to 4-5 per stage. I took the barrel out, cleaned, scrubbed and scraped the crap out of it, and chose not to run it at the match. Used my older 2 pin and did not get a single tumbled/keyholed bullet out of it. As an aside, my major match ammo is the ammo I did not shoot in local matches, and the local match ammo is the leftover major match ammo I did not shoot. It is all the same – 147 grain Zero JHP, 3.5 grains of Titegroup, the same load I have been running for years. Yesterday, I put the cleaned barrel in and ran the gun at a local match. No problems until the final of 5 stages (after about 100 rounds) when I had a tumble/key. Shot a second time using that same gun, and started to get more the second time around. Apparently the cleaning and scraping did not solve the problem. I had brought along a slightly used factory replacement barrel and dropped it in to function fire it, and several magazines through it showed no problem with the tumble/key. I did, however, notice a significantly stronger recoil impulse with that replacement barrel than with the original barrel in the gun. I also noticed a stronger impulse in the barrel of my two pin as well. So several questions (and I apologize for the length of this). First, is this tumbling be a sign of the barrel going south or is it a sign of copper accumulation? Second, could the powder cause whatever is happening to that particular barrel? Previous owner ran Titegroup as well, yet I have no problem with other Glocks I run. Third, what would explain the different recoil impulses with the same ammo in the different barrels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 My guess? Sounds like fouling due to some erosion just past the chamber on the lands. After it's been removed with cleaning the fouling quickly re-accumulates and tumbling resumes. Out of curiosity I would experiment with longer OAL if possible. As far as felt recoil is concerned, no two barrels are the same. Chamber sizes vary and so will pressure and velocity. All that comes to mind there. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 have you chronoed the load through the three barrels in question? slow moving 147's are right on the edge of loosing stability. Ive had several that would keyhole 147's at anything under 950fps (140 pf), Your barrel may be getting enough wear and throat erosion so that the velocity has dropped below the minimum that barrel can stabilize. So looks like you could up the load charge or change barrels. Gotta do something for the economy every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 have you chronoed the load through the three barrels in question? slow moving 147's are right on the edge of loosing stability. Ive had several that would keyhole 147's at anything under 950fps (140 pf), Your barrel may be getting enough wear and throat erosion so that the velocity has dropped below the minimum that barrel can stabilize. So looks like you could up the load charge or change barrels. Gotta do something for the economy every now and then. Thanks to both of you. Two of the barrels I've run at majors, both chrono virtually the same, and have for a couple of years. PF is 139-140. Don't know with the newer barrel yet. Will just move to the newer barrel, just trying to understand why it went south. Curious if the powder is the culprit or something else is. I have more rounds through my original 34 than this second one, yet no changes to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 My guess? Sounds like fouling due to some erosion just past the chamber on the lands. After it's been removed with cleaning the fouling quickly re-accumulates and tumbling resumes. Out of curiosity I would experiment with longer OAL if possible. As far as felt recoil is concerned, no two barrels are the same. Chamber sizes vary and so will pressure and velocity. All that comes to mind there. Jim Thanks. Loaded long as a Glock can go so I have to rule that out. Just happened almost overnight. One minute a great consistent and trustworthy barrel, the next minute, it was not. Close range very accurate still, longer shots, more spread than I normally get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 This is puzzling for sure. I must have 20-30K thru my G34... and I can't recall the last time a cleaned the barrel!!! I only use Berrys for the most part which are soft and copper plated. I also use 231. I know Titegroup burns hot... maybe that could be some of the issue if it is wear??? I see so many people switch out the Glock barrels- unless you really want to shoot lead I'll never understand why.. they are great out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Just happened almost overnight. One minute a great consistent and trustworthy barrel, the next minute, it was not. This hasn't yet happened to me but, I have heard that, when it happens, this is usually how it goes. One day everything is hunky-dory, and the next the accuracy is nonexistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I am no TG hater for sure. Loaded many K's in 40 and 9 with it. But...it is hot. I wouldn't hesitate trying a single base propellant for a few months and see where you're at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 More inclined to think it is the load with a stability issue than the barrel. Have you looked in the barrel or measured the bore and chanber in the barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) More inclined to think it is the load with a stability issue than the barrel. Have you looked in the barrel or measured the bore and chanber in the barrel? Markco, I have not measured. Looking into the bore with a strong light shows me nothing - but then, I may not know what I should be looking for! Grooves and lands look sharp and defined, but who is to say. Problem is isolated to just that one gun. Those same loads run flawless through 3 other Glocks and 2 SIG's. Edited June 13, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razerok1 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 sounds like the prefect time to get an aftermarket barrel and start practicing with lead so you can shoot more and spend less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 sounds like the prefect time to get an aftermarket barrel and start practicing with lead so you can shoot more and spend less. Too much smoke and too much cleaning... Same with moly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 V, Is this a stock Glock barrel or aftermarket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razerok1 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 sounds like the prefect time to get an aftermarket barrel and start practicing with lead so you can shoot more and spend less. Too much smoke and too much cleaning... Same with moly. you can learn to deal with the smoke but i get no leading at all with my kkm and lead the only cleaning i have to do is clean some lube off the roof of my chamber.. i think the ability to shoot more and practice more is worth having to deal with lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 V, Is this a stock Glock barrel or aftermarket? Stock. I have a few extra stock barrels and a KKM that has not been touched. Stock works great for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 sounds like the prefect time to get an aftermarket barrel and start practicing with lead so you can shoot more and spend less. Thanks, but I'll stick with the Zero's. Zero has been very very good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calishootr Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 mite wantto see if you can findsomeone who has a hawkeye borescope(they are fairly expensive) and have a look atthe interior that way, i thought i had 'clean' barrels till i borrowed my 'smiths scope...wow what an eye opener... sounds like a fouling problem??? like was said before TG runs pretty hot, so maybe its burnin off more ofthe base ofthe zero's than normal??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 mite wantto see if you can findsomeone who has a hawkeye borescope(they are fairly expensive) and have a look atthe interior that way, i thought i had 'clean' barrels till i borrowed my 'smiths scope...wow what an eye opener... sounds like a fouling problem??? like was said before TG runs pretty hot, so maybe its burnin off more ofthe base ofthe zero's than normal??? Could be, though I would have expected to have a similar problem in the other guns it runs in, and I don't (too this point). The JHP's are sealed at the bottom, so no lead is exposed. Thanks for the notion of the borescope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Actually the Crono will tell you more about a barrels condition, when you have to stoke it up with an extra grain to get the same velocity that is telling you it is lose. Or slugg it. Now accuracy, is a product of how well the barrel is fit to the gun, that is always #1. Glocksters don't clean their guns or mags, seen many a confession of that on this forum, you may be the exception, and that can cause some excessive wear in areas that affect accuracy. Start by check how tight the barrel fits the "slide bushing" it the barrel is lose accuracy is not possible. Keyholes are a sign of a lose barrel, improper crimp etc. I had two sideways hits at double tap at 25 yards from my open gun, no clue, not another since in 500 rounds, barrel has only 5k rounds and its very fast. I use the Schuemann method of barrel cleaning if shooting jacketed bullets, fire more bullets down the tube to clean it. All that scrape and scratch does more damange than good. Some powders are more abrasive than others, titegroup is the one where you want to let the gun cool down between practice rounds, it burns real hot and it is easy to overheat a barrel. IMHO. If I'm in doubt about a piece of equipment, I just replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 If I'm in doubt about a piece of equipment, I just replace it. Exactly what I plan to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I have never heard of a Glock barrel wearing out. I have worked on Glocks, in a rental fleet, with over 500,000 rounds through them - still shooting fine. My old G35 had well over 100,000 through it. No accuracy issues at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I have never heard of a Glock barrel wearing out. I have worked on Glocks, in a rental fleet, with over 500,000 rounds through them - still shooting fine. My old G35 had well over 100,000 through it. No accuracy issues at all. You forgot to say those guns were professionally maintained. Also being in a rental fleet they only shot the Range's ammo which they bought. And who said it wasn't a mfg defect? DId anyone read about that BiMetal Ammo, who is to say this barrel didn't eat a bunch of Wolf or Monarch or other Serbian BiMeal bullets where it was metal on metal. After reading that article I started paying attention at a match and sure enought there is a guy with an STI Steel Master shooting Wolf Ammo, I'm sure that barrel will not be accurate very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) I have never heard of a Glock barrel wearing out. I have worked on Glocks, in a rental fleet, with over 500,000 rounds through them - still shooting fine. My old G35 had well over 100,000 through it. No accuracy issues at all. Nor have I, but when I have several of them with significantly more rounds through than this one that is having trouble, and using the same ammo, I have no problems, something is amiss. I'm just looking for an explanation. Single shots are fine and accurate, shooting fast and quick is where the problem shows itself. Bang.....bang.....bang is fine. Bang, bang, bang, bang is when it seems to happen. Edited June 17, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Coco, guess that means I am a "professional" as I was the one that kept their guns up. The customers could shoot any ammo they wanted, not just the range ammo - Atlanta Arms. Guess I need some business cards that say "Professional Gun Cleaner". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I have never heard of a Glock barrel wearing out. I have worked on Glocks, in a rental fleet, with over 500,000 rounds through them - still shooting fine. My old G35 had well over 100,000 through it. No accuracy issues at all. Bang.....bang.....bang is fine. Bang, bang, bang, bang is when it seems to happen. I remember how hot my gun would get from Titegroup, do you think the rapid fire is getting the barrel hot enough to deteriorate the spin on the bullet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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