Wall-mounted activator

[ima45dv8]

I'm thinking of a stage that has an activator mounted on a vertical surface. The activator would trigger a mover (probably a swinger or two).

Can I specify in the written stage briefing that it must not be activated by "artificial means" and that the shooter must use some part of their body to activate (no throwing mags or such)?

This might be used at a Level II match.

[Lee King]

I went through this for SC State. You can say "XX must be used to activate moving target".

In my case, there was a "case" sitting on a chair close to the beginning of the stage and an activator at the end. The case was to be placed on the activator to trip a drop out target. During the approval conversations Amidon's statement to me was:

"another way of wording it to remove many questions would be the brief

case must be placed on the table to activate target"

Given that statement, I think you could be very specific as to how the activator is activated.

[Singlestack]

I went through this for SC State. You can say "XX must be used to activate moving target".

In my case, there was a "case" sitting on a chair close to the beginning of the stage and an activator at the end. The case was to be placed on the activator to trip a drop out target. During the approval conversations Amidon's statement to me was:

"another way of wording it to remove many questions would be the brief

case must be placed on the table to activate target"

Given that statement, I think you could be very specific as to how the activator is activated.

What if I placed the case on the table and activated the target with my hand?

Freestyle baby.

[Joe4d]

Put a no shoot on a stand in front of it, so youd have to reach around.

I dont recall anything in the rule book that prohibits using the WSB, coarse its always better to use props and leave it free style. The rule book prohibits specific shooting positions and stances but I dont recall anything that prohibits specific prop activating behavior.

[Singlestack]

I'm thinking of a stage that has an activator mounted on a vertical surface. The activator would trigger a mover (probably a swinger or two).

Can I specify in the written stage briefing that it must not be activated by "artificial means" and that the shooter must use some part of their body to activate (no throwing mags or such)?

This might be used at a Level II match.

I say no. I could throw a mag at it. I do not see anywhere in the rules that allows you to force me in the WSB to use a body part.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

[Lee King]

I went through this for SC State. You can say "XX must be used to activate moving target".

In my case, there was a "case" sitting on a chair close to the beginning of the stage and an activator at the end. The case was to be placed on the activator to trip a drop out target. During the approval conversations Amidon's statement to me was:

"another way of wording it to remove many questions would be the brief

case must be placed on the table to activate target"

Given that statement, I think you could be very specific as to how the activator is activated.

What if I placed the case on the table and activated the target with my hand?

Freestyle baby.

The full wsb stipulated 1 procedural for activation without the case. Again, suggested and approved via Amidon.

[JFlowers]

Also make sure that the target is completely hidden prior to activation. If they can see it they will shoot it and ignore the activator.

[Singlestack]

I went through this for SC State. You can say "XX must be used to activate moving target".

In my case, there was a "case" sitting on a chair close to the beginning of the stage and an activator at the end. The case was to be placed on the activator to trip a drop out target. During the approval conversations Amidon's statement to me was:

"another way of wording it to remove many questions would be the brief

case must be placed on the table to activate target"

Given that statement, I think you could be very specific as to how the activator is activated.

What if I placed the case on the table and activated the target with my hand?

Freestyle baby.

The full wsb stipulated 1 procedural for activation without the case. Again, suggested and approved via Amidon.

Can you back that up with something other than an opinion?

[Lee King]

Can you back that up with something other than an opinion?

Not sure what you're looking for here. I'm not stating opinion other than I had a similar situation while seeking approval for the SC State Championship (Level II) and the subsequent conversation during the approval process. I submitted the stage. Amidon suggested wording to address a similar circumstance where he suggested I specify the manner in which an activator be activated. I have not found any rule restricting the procedure in the WSB other than not requiring a shooter to switch hands etc. So I only have my conversation with the NROI as anecdotal evidence.

John's initial question about the stage procedure:

Mission Impossible--Can they shoot target in the area of chair before

picking up the brief case on chair without penalty?

My followup and his response. He inserted the JA) into the reply:

On "Mission Impossible", the shooter can engage targets in any order

with or without the case. My only requirement is the case be used to

activate the drop out target (is that ok the way it is written in the

WSB?). If a shooter wants to run the entire stage without the case,

grab it, activate the drop out target thereby shooting the entire

stage with both hands free, they will incur no procedural penalties

(only waste a lot of time).

JA)I think the wording is OK, just that there will be questions like I

asked, another way of wording it to remove many questions would be the brief

case must be placed on the table to activate target? Then they can shoot it

anyway they want. Leave the wording that if the brief case is on the ground

when a shot is fired, one procedural per shot.

My followup with corrections (also includes conversation about an unrelated stage:

Hi John,

Attached is an updated version of "Mission Impossible" with wording to

address the requirement to activate the target with the case. Also

attached is an updated version of "Through the Moon". I added a fault

line even with the front of the bench so no one will be tempted to

jump up on the bench. I also added a statement in set up notes for

prop construction to latch the door from the outside.

Lee

John's response to the update (there were comments about another stage but I'm including the whole text of the actual email

Lee,

Mission Impossible looks much better, Through the Moon in the stage briefing

direction is spelled wrong, on the procedure, with the fault line on the

ground, if you run one along the sides and the in front of the door, you

wouldn't have to state through the port as that would be the only place they

could shoot through, then you could just state, on signal engage targets as

visible from within the fault lines, you would still have to latch the door

from the outside after they enter, otherwise they could push the door open

and still not cross the fault line and not have to shoot through the port.

John

WSB as approved:

On signal, engage all targets as they become available from inside designated shooting area. The case must be placed on the table to activate the moving target (One procedural). One procedural penalty will be assessed per shot fired while case is on the ground.

Stage as Published - Stage 2

Edit - url doesnt go to specific stage. Added Stage 2 note.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Lee King

[sperman]

If someone wants to take the chance of hitting the activator by throwing a mag, why not let them? Make the activator really small so that the risk vs. reward is high.

[Singlestack]

What I'm looking for is a rule stating that you can force a shooter to activate a activating mechanism with something (hand, foot, case) in the WSB.

Could a shooter have placed the case on the table without activating the target? In other words, was the place small enough so that the case had to activate the target if on the table?

I don't see anywhere in the rules that you can compel a shooter to activate a target with anything other than by design and I go back to 1.1.5 to back that up.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Singlestack
i made a mistake

[Lee King]

What I'm looking for is a rule stating that you can force a shooter to activate a target in the WSB.

Could a shooter have placed the case on the table without activating the target? In other words, was the place small enough so that the case had to activate the target if on the table?

I don't see anywhere in the rules that you can compel a shooter to activate a target with anything other than by design and I go back to 1.1.5 to back that up.

Let's start with 3.1 and 3.2.1 establishes the parameters/format of the WSB. Then 10.1.1 "Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing."

Show me rules defining "procedure".

[Singlestack]

What I'm looking for is a rule stating that you can force a shooter to activate a target in the WSB.

Could a shooter have placed the case on the table without activating the target? In other words, was the place small enough so that the case had to activate the target if on the table?

I don't see anywhere in the rules that you can compel a shooter to activate a target with anything other than by design and I go back to 1.1.5 to back that up.

Let's start with 3.1 and 3.2.1 establishes the parameters/format of the WSB. Then 10.1.1 "Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing."

Show me rules defining "procedure".

Please check the edit in my post.

[Singlestack]

Neither 3.1 or 3.2.1 contradicts 1.1.5.

The only way to force a shooter to activate an activator with a defined thing, is by course design. 3.2.1 does not say the wsb can contradict 1.1.5.

[Lee King]

What I'm looking for is a rule stating that you can force a shooter to activate a target in the WSB.

I don't see anywhere in the rules that you can compel a shooter to activate a target with anything other than by design and I go back to 1.1.5 to back that up.

Let's start with 3.1 and 3.2.1 establishes the parameters/format of the WSB. Then 10.1.1 "Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing."

Show me rules defining "procedure".

Please check the edit in my post.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage dur- ing non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing mul- tiple shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no proce- dural).

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots is addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.

1.1.5.4 1.1.5.5 allow weak hand and reloads etc. in procedures for certain types of COF

5.2.5.3 (interesting one in that it appears to allow you to specify equipment location in a WSB)

8.1.3 and 8.1.4 allow for differing ready conditions

8.2.4 8.2.5 restricts requiring weak hand draw or transfer

10.2.6.1 allows WSB to override creeping (e.g. self start)

10.2.9 overrides allowing competitors to safely leave and return to start position in WSB

Again, I don't see anything that says you can't say it and a lot of rules implying you may specify "procedures". 1.1.5 says the competitor must be allowed to solve the challenge freestyle. But it also says "However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances." Does the WSB allow "conditions may be created" as defined by "procedure"? Here is a list of rules that clearly allow procedures within certain guidelines. They use words that say "may specify" and "may stipulate" but not "only specify" and "only stipulate" implying other procedures may be stated.

Could a shooter have placed the case on the table without activating the target? In other words, was the place small enough so that the case had to activate the target if on the table?

The shooter could have placed the case on the table without activating. In the end, we had to modify the "container/table" for 2 reasons. 1 - the table wasn't stable enough to insure consistent activation. 2 - there was the potential for a shooter to miss the table and hit the cable to activate the target since the cable was in the air. The container was a box with a hole the size of the "case". You dropped the case into the hole which landed on the pad activating the target. We built up the lip of the hole with 2x4s mostly to force the case to drop straight down (again for consistent activation).

[JAFO]

Is the purpose of requiring "contact activation", for lack of a better term, to force the shooter to go to that position, or for some other reason? If you're just trying to force the competitor to a certain position, it would be better to do it with props such as a cover over the activator with a hinged or slide-open door that would require the shooter to approach it, open the door, then hit the activator. That would ensure the shooter doesn't throw a mag at it without using the WSB to require an action.

[Jim Norman]

I'd go with set up the activator so that ONLY a particular body part will activate the target.

An example could be an electronic activation system with a safety switch, the cover has to be raised to push the button, you can do what you want, but until the cover is raised and the guarded button is pushed, the target will not activate.

Hmmm, gives me an idea. Have to see what I have stashed away in the form of relays and latches. a could 12v batteries and a little work.

Might be fun.

[ima45dv8]

Thanks for replies so far.

=====================

The idea of hiding it behind something is good, but the layout I have in mind won't easily lend itself to obscuring the activator.

Since I might not be able to compel the shooter to run over to it and use some part of their body to activate it (by means of course construction), can I command that action through the WSB?

It needs to work within the rules for both a Level I and II match.

[Lee King]

I just asked JA specifically what allowed me to state the "case must be placed on the table to activate" in the WSB with regards to 1.1.5. His response:

"You are allowing them freestyle, but you are also giving them the procedure

as to how to activate the swinger, you are not telling them when they have

to do it, just how, thus freestyle."

He did not quote rules.

[mactiger]

Thanks for replies so far.

=====================

The idea of hiding it behind something is good, but the layout I have in mind won't easily lend itself to obscuring the activator.

Since I might not be able to compel the shooter to run over to it and use some part of their body to activate it (by means of course construction), can I command that action through the WSB?

It needs to work within the rules for both a Level I and II match.

The answer is yes, and Lee spelled out the rules. 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1. While Singlestack makes a point with freestyle, that rule is for shooting the stage, not prop manipulation. It's been tried and tested many times over several years. The WSB has precedent when specifying how to carry or move a prop, what to activate something with, etc... (I know this from being bitten on the butt a few times by sloppy WSB's...)

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I am with Troy. That is what the "Procedure" is for. Be sure to write a tight Procedure in the WSB. Where we always see trouble is when we get away from pure "all over" freestyle.

[edit to add... I assume you are talking about an USPSA major, and not IPSC?]

[ima45dv8]

[edit to add... I assume you are talking about an USPSA major, and not IPSC?]

Yes...USPSA.

[Singlestack]

The answer is yes, and Lee spelled out the rules. 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1. While Singlestack makes a point with freestyle, that rule is for shooting the stage, not prop manipulation. It's been tried and tested many times over several years. The WSB has precedent when specifying how to carry or move a prop, what to activate something with, etc... (I know this from being bitten on the butt a few times by sloppy WSB's...)

Troy

(here I go getting off the Christmas card list again )

10.2.2 & 10.2.2.1 do not say anything about forcing a competitor to activate an activator with a defined object. They only spell out what the penalty is for not following the WSB. 1.1.5 says the WSB can't tell a competitor how to activate it.

How is prop manipulation not part of shooting the stage?

[Poppa Bear]

I'm thinking of a stage that has an activator mounted on a vertical surface. The activator would trigger a mover (probably a swinger or two).

Can I specify in the written stage briefing that it must not be activated by "artificial means" and that the shooter must use some part of their body to activate (no throwing mags or such)?

This might be used at a Level II match.

I say no. I could throw a mag at it. I do not see anywhere in the rules that allows you to force me in the WSB to use a body part.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5 deals with shooting the targets being FREESTYLE and moving the required props as FREESTYLE. So however you want to get the required part over to the activator is up to you. The part in red is what allows the use of the WSB to create the conditions that forces the shooter to activate the target as the designer desires.

For Lee's stage you could have activated the target with your hand and then placed the case in the box to comply with the WSB. It seems easier to just put the case in the box and let it do the activation for you.

[Poppa Bear]

I'm thinking of a stage that has an activator mounted on a vertical surface. The activator would trigger a mover (probably a swinger or two).

Can I specify in the written stage briefing that it must not be activated by "artificial means" and that the shooter must use some part of their body to activate (no throwing mags or such)?

This might be used at a Level II match.

Place a shield in front of the switch that requires the shooter to step on a plate or push with some other means to slide the shield out of the way. The shooter then reaches in and activates the mover. You could also place the activator shield under tension such that they would need to hit the shield in order push it into the activator. Said force to be 10 to 15 pounds. Enough that a thrown object would not have the mass to complete the task.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Poppa Bear